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  #1  
Old 29-March-2002, 10:05
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Default Did we crucify the true "Messiah" ?

from "UNDERSTANDING THE MESSIAH"

Messiah - Hebrew word signifying "one who has been anointed." The anointed agent of Yahweh. The kings of Israel were anointed with oil in the name of God, which symbolized his investiture with the Spirit of God. The term Messiah was later used to designate a "future king," an expected royal leader from the line of David who would restore the kingdom to Israel. A king who would make all things new, consecrated as Yahweh’s vicegerent in Israel. This son of David, who was expected by the Jewish nation, was the Messiah par excellence, a term that has been rendered in Greek by Christos

The Jews today (because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah) are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But if you ask a rabbi who the Messiah is supposed to be (as I did), he will tell you what all these sources have said, that he will be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. We must always remember that the Messiah is the ideal anointed king of Israel who will reign in God’s kingdom to come, the Messianic kingdom.
Is it not understandable then that some would therefore regard Jesus as the leader of a politically subversive movement?

In these circumstance Jesus and his followers would, quite correctly in their opinion, be treated as criminal political conspirators and dealt with in the same way as other traitors.
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  #2  
Old 29-March-2002, 12:44
Dantony
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We did not crucify anybody, that was a barbaric habit in some far-off foreign countries.
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Old 29-March-2002, 15:49
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Herne I was referring to the responsibilities of human beings in general.

Not certain it is wise to point fingers at a specific race ciulture or era as the next question will be "who" in those far off countries were responsible for this barbaric act.

That being said humans today are frequently guilty of barbaric acts for which as humankind we are collectively responsible whether as those involved, those ignoring or those condoning such acts.
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Old 29-March-2002, 16:33
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No doubt that the jews killed Jesus, one of their own.
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Old 29-March-2002, 19:49
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Ewtie

Jesus was found guilty under Roman Law of imposing as a Messiah and executed by Romans using a Roman method of execution and not Jewish methods of punishment.

The conviction was on the basis that Jesus was unable to provide evidence that he was the Messiah within the criteria known at that time. The reasoning is set out in the introductory post to this thread.
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Old 29-March-2002, 21:19
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You already stated in another thread that you are an atheist, so why bother assessing blame about Jesus' execution?
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  #7  
Old 29-March-2002, 22:00
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Fair question Hokumele.

The reason is that I agree with certain Christian concepts of morality but obviously as an atheist don't take on board the spiritual aspects. Furthermore I have a Christian partner whose beliefs I respect.

I share my partners sorrow for a day that is special to her in her religion.

Tolerance, understanding and knowledge is needed to work towards world peace and understanding.

Please note that I was not "blaming" but pointing out certain facts in response to Ewtie seeming to blame Jews for the death of Jesus.

Indeed Jews did participate in the decisions leading up to the execution of Jesus. For some it is the root of anti-semitic propaganda to simply blame Jews entirely for the death of Jesus.

Both my threads today were intended as food for thought on a day that is special to one particular faith
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Old 30-March-2002, 13:17
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Default Pharisees

True, in the final installment, but who persued and wanted the death of Jesus. The Jews - yes.

I have nothing against Jews by the way or in fact, anyone. I love every living soul and all inaminate life.
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Old 30-March-2002, 14:17
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Jewish religious leaders considered that Jesus was not a "Messiah" in terms of their faith. Furthermore Jesus failed to provide an adequate and reasoned defence against the serious allegations that were made against him.

Jesus was therefore seen as a subversive and a threat to established religion and political power and in these circumstances certain decisions were ochestrated.

It seems unreasonable therefore to attribute the death of Jesus to completely on the shoulders of the entire Jewish population.

It is true that the views of religious leaders were endorsed by those present at a specific location and a specific time but that does not mean that those people spoke on behalf of all Jews.

Underline the execution was for an offence under Roman Law, the trial was under Roman Justice system and it was a Roman punishment.
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Old 30-March-2002, 14:34
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It seem s to me that your whole argument and line of discussion is being built on one fact, that you, as you state are an atheist.

the method of Jesus's death is to a great deal irrelevent to a 'Christian'

to all believing Christians, forgive me if that is not true.

what is important is that Jesus rose from the dead, that is what Easter is celebrating, not his death.

it is his resurection that is central to Christian belief.

and no i am not a christian, but neither am i an atheist,
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  #11  
Old 30-March-2002, 19:19
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Whether I am religious or atheist is not relevant to this thread.

We seem to be extending here into an exploration of facts surrounding the commercialisation and corruption of what is both a pagan and Christian festival. We are also looking at the manner in which Easter has been explained in schools.

The pagan festival of Easter originated as the worship of the sun goddess, the Babylonian Queen of Heaven who was later worshipped under many names including Ishtar, Cybele, Idaea Mater (the Great Mother), or Astarte (or Eostre) for whom the celebration of Easter is named.

Easter is not another name for the Feast of Passover and is not celebrated at the Biblically prescribed time for Passover. This pagan festival was supposedly "Christianized" several hundred years after Christ.

After much debate, the Nicaean council of 325 A.D. decreed that "Easter" should be celebrated on the first Sunday, after the full moon, on or after the vernal equinox. Why was so much debate necessary if "Easter" was a tradition passed down from the Apostles? The answer is that it was not an Apostolic institution, but, an invention of man! They had to make up some rules.

History records that spring festivals in honor of the pagan fertility goddesses and the events associated with them were celebrated at the same time as "Easter". In the year 399 A.D. the Theodosian Code attempted to remove the pagan connotation from those events and banned their observance.
Today we fail to observe Easter properly as either a pagan festival or a Christian Festival. I was taught at school that Jesus died to redeem our sins. The crucifixion and details of the death of Jesus were imprinted as a story of horror and suffering in our young minds. The flogging, the crown of thorns, the nails, the spear.

Tony ...If the details of the crucifixion are unimportant why was this so much impressed in our young minds. If, as you say, the resurrection is the most important aspect of the Christian faith why are our churches filled with images of the crucifixion instead of the resurrection.

My young mind took in the fact that the crucifixion was such a torment that it caused Jesus to question his Father.....

Matthew 27:46: "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?'--which means, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

With the sin of the world upon Him, Jesus suffered spiritual death (separation from the Father ). Isaiah 59:2 says that sins cause a separation from God, and that He hides His face from you so that He does not hear. The Father must turn away from His Beloved Son on the cross. For the first time, Jesus does not address God as His Father.(Courson)
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  #12  
Old 30-March-2002, 19:41
tony
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what churces are filled with images of the crucifixion?, certainly not ones that are progressive and full of 'christians'.

certainly it is on view and worshipped to some part in many churches.

most of these are full of 'relegious' people who have no more belief than you or me.

The true christian faith is built upon the sure and certain belief that Jesus, died and rose from the dead.

Of course, i would assume, the death on the cross was a horror, but that was just the begining, not the end.

you are right, i belive that the 'christian' festival of Easter, takes place at the same time as an earlier pagan festival, but then so does most of the christian festivals, the birth of christ was no more on the 25th Dec, than was his death last friday, it cannot be as Good Friday is on a different date each year.
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Old 30-March-2002, 19:55
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My Roman Catholic primary school was half school, half church.
You could walk straight out of class and straight into God's house.
There was most certainly a large statue of the crucifixion taking centre place above the altar, and I can remember Jesus's solemn face on it very clearly.

Any other churches I've seen have had crucifixions prominently on display as well.
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  #14  
Old 30-March-2002, 20:18
tony
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and i can take you to churches that have non.

the cross is a symbol, that is all, it is the belief in the resurection that is central point, the rest flows from that
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Old 30-March-2002, 21:33
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and i can take you to churches that have non.
Guess I could if I searched find pubs with no smoking bars but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

Most of us associate pubs with smoking and churches with images of the crucifixion.

Underline that my religious education was based on the horror and importance of the crucifixion that was planted in the mind as reality.

On the other hand the resurrection seemed to be magic and somewhat like a fairy tale or ghost story to a kid.
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  #16  
Old 30-March-2002, 21:49
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of cource the crusifixion was important, Jesus knew he had to die to create what was to follow, but the crusifixion was just a means of achieving this.

the critical part of christianity is the resurrection, a christian believes that Christ beat death and with that belief knows that there is life after death.

without that belief there is no way to follow Christ to Heaven

being good is not enough, knowing it is there is not enough, the absolute belief in the resurrection is the only way.

this is a quote from contact in the states, who believes

The main message I realize is "Do you believe Christ rose from the dead as he said he did to give us eternal spirtual life."

We can believe so many other things without physical evidence, so why not something that will have so great an impact on our future.

The problem with us is that if we can't feel it or see it, it does not exist (to some).

end of quote.

are these facts, i do not know!
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Old 30-March-2002, 21:52
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Who is the 'We' in the thread title?

fenix
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Old 30-March-2002, 21:53
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Past history! Has been discussed earlier in the thread M8
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:00
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You posed the question, presumably you are included in the 'We', or has there been an error in the question?

fenix
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  #20  
Old 30-March-2002, 22:03
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Guess we all have a wee bit of DNA in us from those involved.
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:04
tony
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not a redirect or a steal, just a comment

must say Vic, we get into some deep one's, if its not Royalty or After the Watershead then religion is sure to cause an argument
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:11
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Prefer to call them lively discussions tony

I've been very, very good today in not posting in the News item about the Queen Mother's death even although it has seriously disrupted my television viewing this evening.

But to return to the topic.............
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:13
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did not think you were the once bitten, twice shy kind
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:17
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One lively discussion is enough

Thanks tony - you realise beneath my apparant tough exterior there is a heart of gold
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:17
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That means that in your opinion every sin or deed commited by anyone since the human race existed is borne by everyone else, we are all culpable. Would that be a correct interpretation ?

fenix
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:23
tony
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plead the 5th Vic or was it the 'Royal' we
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:24
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Why not? If you wish to go in the direction of proving we are all sinners and in need of redemption
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Old 30-March-2002, 22:27
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Tony a Royal we? Are you taking the urine ?
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  #29  
Old 30-March-2002, 22:32
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not in a serious thread
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  #30  
Old 30-March-2002, 22:37
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Was getting a little heavy going seriously defending my most vulnerable parts

Humour a good defence?
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