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  #31  
Old 13-June-2001, 10:55
navan
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The Information given was obtained from the following:
The Sunday Times, October 29th, 2000.
Under 'Comment'.
'The fearful future of Adult A and Adult B.
'Profile'
'The Bulger killers'

You may wish to take the published information given as not true and correct with the Editor of the Sunday Times, or the Press Council.
Please do so and kindly post onto the Scream the result.
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  #32  
Old 13-June-2001, 12:13
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Thanks Navan for the pointer to the Sunday Times article, but it would have been helpful if you had included the link in your original post.

I for one do not believe everything I read in the papers including The Sunday Times, as I also do not believe everything I watch on television.
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  #33  
Old 13-June-2001, 12:36
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Well, call me naive but I also heard this story and trusted it to be true.

I don`t really think you can blame navan for posting what he also believed to be true. The newspapers/news are there to tell us the news - we can`t get information first hand so have to take these reports as being as near enough to the truth as we can, or else what`s the point?

There is obviously an issue here, as was highlighted in last nights programme, that people have embellished the 'facts' to stir up already high emotions. I think the fault lies with the British media, not navan.
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  #34  
Old 13-June-2001, 13:40
Ananya
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Going back to what was originally said in this thread, and whilst I agree that publishing an unclear photograph of one of the killers could well be counter-productive, I am apalled at the way those 2 individuals have been treated. They have been fed, cared for and protected for the last few years and will continue to be protected once they are released. Totally disgusting.

They may have been children when they committed that despicable crime but they knew exactly what they were doing to that poor little mite, imagine how he must have suffered? In my eyes, there is no way those 2 can ever pay for what they did, they are the scum of the earth and deserve everything they get.

JMHO before anyone gets shirty
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  #35  
Old 13-June-2001, 14:23
navan
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I have posted elsewhere that if a Post of mine gives information which is not factual and correct, let the 'powers that be' just delete.
If comments are then made about a particular post, provide rebuttals arising from research and not purely a 'keyboard' response.
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  #36  
Old 13-June-2001, 15:08
seaviewuk
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I'm sorry if i have caused offence..but..I do not believe I am being a critic of Navan but when information is copied from other sources i thought it was an unwritten rule to point to the link which in this case was clearly not done without prompting.

Was this "information" given at the trial? I would imagine that horrendous details like these would have been jumped on by the press at the time..I for one can't remember details about paint being poured into his eyes or batteries inserted in unpleasant places.

Can anyone else???
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  #37  
Old 13-June-2001, 15:20
panikos
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Navan is not at fault here. I would have assumed the paper was repeating common knowledge. I didn't remember these details either but I thought maybe I didn't listen to every gory detail at the time.

As for putting in a link, well it is a good habit but I don't always do that either.

Do we know that the paper was wrong or are we just saying that it's been rumored that false information is being spread about. If the latter then we are back where we started.
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  #38  
Old 13-June-2001, 15:45
Louise
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According to last nights programme, the reports of torture that were supposedly inflicted on James Bulger were said to be fabrications. If we are to follow this current argument, what is to say that we should believe what the documentary has said?

After watching the programme, and following this discussion, it just made the issues that have been discussed more blurred in my mind.

The first question that should be asked is has anything changed after the murder of this little boy. I think the answer would be no. Children are still running riot, out of control, not just in Liverpool, but all over the country. Parents are still frightened to get Social Services involved because it is often not clear whose side the social workers are actually on.

The second question - did the other young people who were held in this unit have the same rights, priviledges and opportunities that Venables and Thompson got? If so, have they proved themselves to be decent human beings, capable of living in todays society as responsible, mature adults on their rehabilitation.

For me the main issue is not whether they are still a danger to society when they get out of this 'prison', but have they been punished adequately for the crime they committed. No matter who tells me otherwise, I do not believe eight years spent inside a secure unit with a swimming pool, indoor football pitch, and all the other mega facilities they seemed to have is a just punishment. There are thousands, if not millions of good kids out there who have no such facilities to use at their leisure.

Just seems that there`s something wrong somewhere...

Last edited by Louise; 13-June-2001 at 15:50.
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  #39  
Old 13-June-2001, 19:21
merry
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Well, but the thing is, as the guy from the secure unit said on that programme last night, if you take two ten year olds and put them into a 'punishment' regime for the length of their sentence, the chance of releasing two reformed and rehabiliated people into the world at large at the end of their sentence, is nil.

No easy answers here - maybe no answers at all - I guess society is always going to struggle to find a 'right' way to deal with atrocity, especially when committed by children.
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  #40  
Old 13-June-2001, 20:37
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navan's quotation confirmed as coming from a usually reliable source:-

"The Sunday Times" Back Issues


October 29 2000 PROFILE

The Bulger killers

The fearful future of Adult A
and Adult B


<snip>
“At dusk they reached a lonely railway line, a favourite haunt. There they poured a can of blue enamel paint they had shoplifted into his eyes. His lower clothing was removed and a pathologist later found anal injuries believed to have been caused by the insertion of batteries the boys had stolen. Thompson and Venables then stoned him with half bricks, caved his head in with a 22lb iron bar and left him for dead across the tracks, to be cut in half by a goods train”
<snip>
Apologies navan...... good thing you did not quote from the "News of the World"

I'll see if I can get some comment from either "The Sunday Times" or Channel Four!

Regards
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  #41  
Old 13-June-2001, 21:54
S-J
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I am not adding to any of my earlier comments by doing this and my intent is not to dispute any facts, but I do feel it is possible to examine this segment of newspaper copy linguistically. There is certainly a definite intent in its use of lexis ie the author has created a scene and a mood and is using individual words to convey an intended emotion/s and create an intended response from the reader.

'Dusk' and 'lonely' in the first line create both an image of intending darkeness, gloom and helplessness. This could be understood as an opening line from a novel. The author is setting a scene and a mood.

'Haunt' at the end of the first line creates an image in the mind of the reader that these boys like this place, that they choose to spend time here in the already author-created isolation/gloominess. 'Haunts' are also somewhere that 'villains/ne'er do wells' frequent and where 'good law abiding' citizens dare not. There is also some, intended I believe in this case, supernatural/evil connotation to the word.

The pathologist only 'believed' that the batteries were the cause of the injuries, though this is only an opinion. Read in conjunction with the other injuries, the reader could easily miss this word 'believed'.

The use of the word 'stoned' is perhaps factually accurate, although I read somewhere else that they lifted a brick and repeatedly hit his head with it. But the word 'stoned' evokes feelings of the innocents in the Bible stories, of helplessness, of ritual and frenzy.

The second clause of the last line takes the reader to a very quick conclusion. It does not go into any detail, but leaves the reader to imagine the horror for themselves. This method of ending is used to great effect.

I am not detracting from the crime, the horror or the guilt of anyone. I am pointing out that authors of such articles are very aware of what they are doing and the effect they want to create in a reader. This is not a purely 'factual' account of the crime, it has been written in such a way as to 'manipulate' feelings. It uses emotive language. Anyone reading this would feel exactly as the author wanted them to feel. It certainly had the desired effect today. I could write another article, using the same facts, but create a completely different response from all but the most hardened linguists.

As someone said, we must be careful of what we read in a newspaper/magazine...
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  #42  
Old 14-June-2001, 06:55
edward1
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All very fine s j, and of course quite accurate, you are putting forward an academic critique of the authors "mood setting" of the situation worthy of an A level paper. But the inescapable fact is that a young innocent child was intentionally taken and put to death, NOT by accident, NOT through any negligence by the killers , but willfully and no doubt with perverted pleasure by these young misfits in society, and of course here lies the nub of the situation, "misfits in society" I believe most sincerely that parents or guardians are responsible for the behaviour of their offspring. Work as I do in education and you would see there are more quite capable of such acts. I AM SERIOUS, and the attitude of their respective parent/parents/guardians to authority is totally unbelievable to decent ordinary people.
I make no suggestions as to what should happen to these killers, but certainly the views of the family of Jamie should be considered and taken into account, not just the high flown deliberations of child behaviour "experts" and those with cushy jobs in the £3000 per week establishments where such miscreants are held.
P.S.
I will go to work to-day and see two chidren sharing a tatty worn out textbook, children of parents who pay their taxes and are decent members of society.
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  #43  
Old 14-June-2001, 08:14
S-J
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As I said Edward, my post was only to add to the discussion about newspapers and authorial intent. I did state firmly that I was not detracting from the crime etc.

I too am a teacher. However, my work does not take place in a mainstream school and I don't get paid three grand a week!

Yes, I agree that there are many children out there that have the capability to commit similar acts. I work with a few just like this and let's just say a few that are 'more' than capable. I think there were probably one ot two I looked at across my mainstream classroom too, if I am honest about it.

Have we as a society actually learnt anything from this case though, apart from calling for stricter punishments? What steps have we taken to try and make sure nothing like this happens again? I do not believe anything has changed. I see the evidence of this everyday and though the vast majority of children come from loving, secure and upright homes, there are just as many that do not.

Punishment, by all means. Let the debate continue on this. I know there are plenty of other Thompson/Venables out there, some waiting to happen as we debate this issue. As you say, you see it too.

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  #44  
Old 14-June-2001, 08:48
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Must have churned S-J's analysis in my subconscious last night... decided I would post a reply before travelling

The problem for me is that I read "The Sunday Times" for the quality of it's layout and general content. I read between the lines for the way this neutral paper leans politically :

I don't agree with edward here that SJ's post was an
academic critique of the authors "mood setting" of the situation worthy of an A level paper.
The post encouraged me to look at the way this paper was attempting to manipulate my emotions rather than reporting facts. I'm not saying this is always bad thing always as the ST have in the past run many successful campaigns to remedy unfair or unsafe practices.

We need reminding by posts like S-J's the way that even the "quality" press use the techniques of the tabloids sometimes.

IMHO the Channel Four documentary was an objective appraisal of this problem in contrast with "The Sunday Times" subjective and emotional reporting.

Farewell for a while
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  #45  
Old 14-June-2001, 09:29
merry
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Edward, we all have enormous sympathy with the terrible grief of James' family, but it is not likely that their wishes will, or should, be taken into account while deciding the fate of T&V.

Courts and laws were invented for that very reason - to decide impartially on the punishment for offenders rather than leave it to the victims, for they not unnaturally will seek 'revenge' rather than justice.

I don't know, but I doubt there are many societies nowadays which decide the fate of convicted wrongdoers by going along with the wishes of the victims or their families.

Last edited by merry; 14-June-2001 at 09:37.
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  #46  
Old 14-June-2001, 11:20
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Im just goin to repeat what I said on the Net4nowt forum :-

My view is this,

It is very risky using this type of rehabilitation for a number of reasons:-

a) It gives the wrong impression to other young individuals that as a murderer your treated better in comparison to other offender. Also the more horrific a crime you commit the more likely you are to get a better and fresher start.

b) If they offend again think of the wasted cost, £3,000 per week per person or over £500,000 for the period they have been held, it would be a very very expensive watse of money for the taxpayer. Of course the "government" will not allow this happen. No way , They will be followed everywhere by undercover oficers because a failure of this magnitude would most certainly produce catasrophic ripples for yaers to come.

c) It can also be be seen that the punishment (if any) hasnt really fitted the crime. Whilst some prisoners are being locked up for 20Hrs a day for theft the vaule of one childs life has been taken down to a 3,000 per week investment for the criminal and a fresh start in life with all the help they need.

The Bulger murderers with a troubled family life are the exception rath
er than the rule In that many people have troubled family lifes it is not an excuse to take ones life end of story. Allowing a child with a bad upbringing to think like that allows the individual who commited the crime to displace the responsibility of actually doing the crime it in so far as that it then becomes excusable because of a bad childhood.


IMHO as I say with a lot of things do do with children THE PARENTS should have been locked away. There should be a law wwhich holds the childs parents responsible where a child who commits crime under a certain age will have himself punished and his parents.

While I dont disagree with the Rehab Idea of the Bulger Killers I do think more should have been done to make their parents accountable .

What the hell where the Bulger killers doing at 10 wandering the busy streets for such a long period of time?

Their parents such have also gone to prison for at least six months in my view.

My anwser to the problem simple-

Tag all young offenders and curfew them. Any that break the curfew or the tag get put in prison no remand no freebies and no messing or nannying about. It will save the taxpayers millions and allow them to have a level of freedom and self respect in a controlled environment. If they are allowed out to offend again bang them up along with their parents.

It might seem a little harsh but it would work. Community spirit from the 70s that I remember prevented a lot of common thuggery and theft I remember when you could leave your door open in the middle of a council estate, A clip arounfd the earhole from the local bobby and a visit would have once embrassed the parents and the result of being sent to bed with soap in the mouth did the wonders for todays 30s-40s year olds.

All those things have gone due to political correctness, Soft rules from Europe and the lack of investement in our
Police force.

Move on people say but at what expense? has it really been worth it I doubt Jamies Spirit would say so.

Just think a clip around the earhole from a local Bobby may have saved poor Jame's life.


http://64.21.147.193/showthread.php?s=&threadid=880

Last edited by Techtips; 14-June-2001 at 11:31.
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  #47  
Old 14-June-2001, 12:50
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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Hello.

I have now watched that Channel 4 programme and I did so with tears in my eyes, that's right, a 31 year old male brought to tears by a TV documentary....

Anyway, I admit that there was no mention of the horrific things detailed in that quote that navan made - but the cold, horrible truth is still that they led him to his death, bricking him in the face and left him to die on the rail tracks.

They are, and will always be evil, little murdering ********.

That programme sickened me hearing about the days out they regularly recieve and seeing the TVs and Playstations in their rooms, and all the top class exercise facilities they have access to.

I still believe that they have had no punishment whatsoever, and there is no way they deserve to be let out within the next 3-6 weeks.

Justice has NOT been done.

Going back to the question of whether or not this grainy CCTV photograph should be available freely to anyone who wants it, well, I would never wish anyone to be wrongly mistaken - so no, it shouldn't be released.

Having said that, these 2 little "unreformed" ******** will have one hell of a shock *if* they are ever released. There are far too many normal, decent hardworking people out here that are baying for their blood and they WILL get their punishment then...

There is NO hiding place for perpetrators of such a hideous crime.

I don't mean to preach on about this subject, but I ask you if you haven't already done so - please visit the "Justice For James" website, link below.

Thankyou all for contributing to this most upsetting thread.
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  #48  
Old 14-June-2001, 13:36
STS
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Hi,


And you may take it as read that they will never be moved into the HM Prison System anonymously either. Even though the authorities will try @ some time were they to remain in custody.

One of them is alledgedly in a secure unit somewhere in Staffordshire and when it was rumoured that he had been transferred into the HMP system with another identity all manner of cross checking and backtracking broke out. And that was just the staff tring to find out.

Now why would that be ?

STS
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  #49  
Old 14-June-2001, 13:53
S-J
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I truly believe this thread has been one of the most informative and educative ones we have had at TS! I have learnt so much from it and from the differing views put across.

Can I just add something brought up initially a day or two ago, but compounded by Tech, about responsiblity? Again, I am not detracting from the crime etc etc. I just want people's views.

I understand that the boy was with T&V for up to 2 hours before they caused the injuries that killed him. They walked with him, dragged him, smacked him round the head and made him bleed and kicked him. This was on the streets, not at the railway line.

We know this is fact, not reported or distorted, because somewhere in the region of 16 people gave evidence to the police and in court stating they witnessed the boys doing it.

Only one, a woman, actually went up to the toddler and asked what was going on. She was told by the boys that he was their little brother and they were taking him home. She left it and walked on, though she stated the toddler was clearly distressed and bleeding from the head. She has since remarked she wishes she hadn't, quite understandably.

I think people are quite right to question T&Vs' parents and their responsiblities as such. However, do we not have a responsibility also? Would you have ignored/walked by/not questioned/not took action if you had witnessed the abuse of a distressed toddler?

I think times have changed, as Tech stated. I do not believe people would have done this years ago. People would not have stood by and let it happen. I don't mean the actual murder, of course, but the events leading up to it. It could have been prevented, perhaps, if one person had intervened...we are not talking about two knife-wielding, drunk/drugged brutes here, we are talking about two wily, lying, 'misfit' 10 year old boys. Only one person said anything to these two, yet many more looked away.

I believe we as a society 'look away'. We shake our heads, we call for tougher punishments, we debate. But we choose to look away all the same. Meanwhile, similar crimes take place. I know that there are boys and girls in institutions in this country who have committed similar crimes that the 'powers to be' prevent the general public from knowing about. I wonder why they do this?

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  #50  
Old 14-June-2001, 14:05
S-J
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Your post went up as I was writing mine, STS.

I know why.

Because the staff are human beings. They may be professionals, but they are human beings doing a difficult job in incredibly trying circumstances. They have to clean up the **** that society spits out and sometimes, even they are 'appalled' by it and think like a human being. Enough said, don't you think?

There are many people out there cleaning it up. They don't create it personally, but they attempt to do the right thing for the rest of society in a professional manner. They are not all wishy-washy liberals giving criminals an easy ride. They are just trying, as instructed by 'them' upstairs, psychologists, behaviour specialists and the judicial/justice system to clear up the mess created by other 'things'.

People might be appalled by the crime, as we all are...but imagine being one of the people responsible for them? Respect goes to these people.
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  #51  
Old 14-June-2001, 15:07
STS
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Hi,

Professionalism Vs Disgust Vs Symathy Vs Parenthood Vs Public Opinion Vs The Media Vs Mistrust Vs Most of lifes Emotions.

Vs professionalism again at the end.

There are no winners...Thank You S-J.

STS
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  #52  
Old 14-June-2001, 15:07
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S-J wants us to talk of responsibility. I take no responsibility at all for this or any other crime committed by anyone other than myself. The responsibility lies with the perpetrators of crime and only them. The parents are in some way responsible for the morals they instill in their children but ultimately it's up to each one of us to choose how to behave.

Had any of us been walking by this trio as they walked to the railway, we would barely have given them a second glance. Perhaps some of us would have tutted and said how bad it is that children of that age are left to look after such a small boy but as it happens all the time we'd dismiss it from our minds.

Things weren't better in the past, things were simply hushed up.

Ann
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  #53  
Old 14-June-2001, 15:26
STS
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Hi,

Ann, You are right in the fact that no-one is accountable for the actions of others, or responsible either.

However when those "others" are your flesh and blood that you brought into the world and raised then perhaps something is amiss.

2 obviously disfunctional families in this picture.

As I read somewhere "before you slag off the younger generation...remember who brought them up"

STS
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  #54  
Old 14-June-2001, 15:45
S-J
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Yes, of course you are not personally responsible or accountable, Ann. I wasn't really inferring that any individual is/or was. I was talking more about a collective responsibility for the society and world we live in. Most people are law abiding, doing there best to bring up their families in difficult circumstances. I think that is true now as it always has been. I also believe that the society we live in is far less caring and considerate. Many of the 'problems' we have are of 'our' own making because of this.

I do think I would have intervened. They were not a trio of boys just walking along, they were, as I said, abusing him in front of people. People have stated these facts under oath.

I agree with you that many things were hushed up in the past, sexual and physical abuse are most definately is at the top of this list. I don't know if these occurances are more prevalent now, or if they are just reported more.

Yes, STS, they came from dysfunctional families. I do not think this is an excuse for their behaviour, but it may very well be a reason for it, amongst other things. I have to agree with the quote.
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  #55  
Old 14-June-2001, 15:51
STS
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Hi,

I tried it on my Dad several years ago in jest.

He was 68 @ the time and knocked me on my arse, he was jesting said my mother as I got up.

STS
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  #56  
Old 16-June-2001, 09:45
S-J
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No, I do not have a problem with one of these young men being my neighbour or living in my area. It isn't like I would know anyway, is it?

I do not believe they would be any type of threat to me or anyone else, if and when they got released.

I do not know if I have any other ex-convicts living near me. I do not feel anymore at risk because of this.

I am sure other people will have quite different reactions however, but this is mine for you.
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  #57  
Old 16-June-2001, 09:53
merry
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Well said S-J. I wouldn't have any problem with them moving into my neighbourhood either.
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  #58  
Old 16-June-2001, 10:22
panikos
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Well they have to live somewhere don't they. You could say that no criminals should ever be released using that argument. As long as they are not in the part of the country they came from cos that would be wrong.
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  #59  
Old 16-June-2001, 10:58
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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So, some of you wouldn't have any problems with murderers (and what about rapists - different subject altogether I know, but I had to include that) living in your neighbourhood ?

Boy, that does worry me....

Granted, in this society, gone are the days when you knew who your neigbours are, but to say you have do not have a problem with them being in your area is not very sensible "in my opinion", but we are all entitled to our own...

S-J: "I do not believe they would be any type of threat to me or anyone else, if and when they got released."

And what if one of them moved in next door to you, or down your street ? Meaning if you *knew* who they were when they moved in... you saying you still wouldn't mind then ?
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  #60  
Old 16-June-2001, 11:38
merry
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If I heard that either of them was being released to live in my neighbourhood, of course I wouldn't move! Would you? Really?

Last edited by merry; 16-June-2001 at 11:43.
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