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  #61  
Old 16-June-2001, 11:48
S-J
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Yes, my opinion and yours differ, Mega.

I am sure their are murderers and rapists living near me. Probably have the odd kiddy fanatic too...but all I can do is make sure I am a law abiding person, protect myself and my daughter the best I can and live my life.

If one of the two young men did move into my neighbourhood, I am sure none of us would know. They have a legal right to their privacy, as much as anyone dislikes this ruling. Higher powers have decreed they have done their time and served their sentence. I can do nothing about this, whether I agree or not.

The thing is, as Pan said, no one in this society wants 'it' in their backyard. Not just the boys...but anything we don't like.

These people are not going to go away. They exist. They need to be re-integrated into society. We can't ignore them. We can't wish them away. Yes, they have taken themselves out of society by commiting a heinous crime against it, but it happens and now they are apparently ready to rejoin it.

I don't know what the answers are.

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  #62  
Old 16-June-2001, 11:59
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"They have a legal right to their privacy, as much as anyone dislikes this ruling."

Too f**king right I dislike this ridiculous ruling, along with over 79% of the population (when last polled over this scandalous event).

So, they have battered and murdered a little boy, served 8 years in a "soft" institution with TVs and Playstations in their rooms (note rooms, NOT cells), access to snooker tables, gym and fitness equipment along with trips out to swimming pools, shopping centres and walks in the countryside.

HMMMMMMMMM... I DON'T SEE ANY PUNISHMENT THERE, NONE WHATSOEVER.

They should have no legal rights.

What legal rights does little James have ?

None - he's DEAD.

Murdered by two evil little ********, who no doubt will get released as the Law in this country is a total ass anyway

Why can't people accept they just haven't received any punishment ?

Or, rather, why do people on here think they have ?
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  #63  
Old 16-June-2001, 12:14
S-J
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I believe most people here truly think they haven't been adequately punished, Mega.

I don't think one person has said they have.

People have expressed the belief that publishing the photo taken illegally is wrong. They have expressed the belief that the crime was terrible. They have expressed differing views on the boys' reasons for committing it.

But everyone agrees they probably have not been punished enough.

The problem is what is enough punishment for this crime when the perps. are young boys? And I suppose the main problem is how does a society come to terms with the fact that they were just boys?

I don't know if there are any answers to the latter. I do know that they are not the only kids who have committed a crime such as this, and they won't be the last either.

I do believe we should look at the reasons why they and many other kids do these things, and learn how to prevent them in future and learn from it.

But I don't think the majority, as you say, can do this. Which means, all in all, that this society is in for a lot more anger, horror and grief.
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  #64  
Old 16-June-2001, 12:18
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Fair point S-J.

Just don't let me get my hands on them.
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  #65  
Old 16-June-2001, 12:30
S-J
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You and hundreds beside you, Mega.

And I don't believe that your feelings are wrong either. Illegal, but not wrong. Human, that's all.

I don't know if I am not human, but I don't feel the same way. I just feel 'pity', for both the Bulgar family and the boys and their families, and a certain amount of 'despair'.

Please don't think the pity I feel for those two is the same as for the victims of their crime though. I can't explain it...I just think the whole situation is a waste of life and potential.
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  #66  
Old 16-June-2001, 12:36
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Any wee chance of putting this to an end.
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  #67  
Old 16-June-2001, 13:12
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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S-J: "...I just think the whole situation is a waste of life and potential."

And what about the potential little James Bulger had ?

He didn't get any say in the matter, he was just cruelly snuffed out by these two murderers.

And what I ask are these two gonna offer the world I wonder ?

Rehabilitation ? Don't make me laugh.

P.S. What's up Navan ? Is this getting too sensitive for you ? It was you who originally posted those horrific injury details after all... true or otherwise.

No, I won't let this end as I'm afraid this subject is close to my heart, and if I could do anything to help Denise or James' father then I would.

Denise campaigns to keep them inside, while he is after their heads.

I fully sympathise with them both, but as I said earlier, the way the lack of justice in this country works they will probably be freed in 6 weeks time, then they'd better be watching over their shoulders at every corner 'cos they WON'T get away with this dispicable crime. One day they will get there real punishment.

I am not saying I applaud violence, I am a very quiet, peaceful man indeed, but someone will get these evil ********, seeing as the legal system has not punished them one jot.
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  #68  
Old 16-June-2001, 15:09
S-J
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I think that if you re-read my post, Mega, you will see that I meant a waste of Bulgar's life, as well as his potential - not just the potential of T&V.

Navan possibly believes the thread is exhausted. He might have a point, but then again it is surely up to the posters to decide if and when they cease to discuss it. I am quite sure he meant no offence, Mega, and that it has not got too senstive for him.
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  #69  
Old 16-June-2001, 15:35
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A few weeks ago i read in the newspapers of an Iranian or Iraq woman who was buried up to her neck in the ground.She was then stoned to death.
Her crime ?
She had been caught making an adult movie.
Appalling i know.
But if this had been T&Vs punishment the queue would have been a mile long to throw those stones with Jamie's family at the head of it.
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  #70  
Old 16-June-2001, 17:33
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There hasn't been alot of information about the more recent events concerning this here in the states,, so i have not made any conclusions on it,, But one thing i find missing is the mention of any documentation of the current mental condition of the two boys. I can onlly assume they have been undergoing extensive therapy since this happened,, and i really can't imagine the horrors they have to live with for the rest of their lives as they have to daily remember what they did.

Is it not fair to say that even the most cynical of criminals can be rehibilated? Why not two little boys? I would imagine they will need continued professional help for still many years to come.

As a parent i find the subject of children killers to be of the more horrific subjects,, but it happens

We can not be sure of the people who live around us at all,, take into consideration the astonishment of neighbors when they find out that "joe blow" next door was a serial killer and rapist,,,,would they have picked him for neighbor of the week? Doubtful, but what they werent' aware of they didn't worry about.


The boys did something horrendeous,, that is not in question,,,,, but before anyone piles up the stones to take their own bit of justice,, i think it would be wise to get more information on what state of mind they are in now,, For all anyone knows,, they could be as normal now as any of us are. Let them have a chance to give something back to society in the name of little Jamie , rather than continueing to fuel the hostility and hatred that has been directed at them. There is a chance they could still do some good in their lifetime.

tebs
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  #71  
Old 16-June-2001, 20:48
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Promise?
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  #72  
Old 16-June-2001, 20:52
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Hi,

I read all the posts and digest the relevant (and irrelevant) parts...There is so much conflict here in this subject it would be impossible to answer or decide what ought to be done.

None of us have the entire truth or facts (both past & present) to influence our thoughts or feelings as to whether or not what may or may not happen.

We are all individual and from diferent walks of life (the togetherness of the www eh !) and therefore our opinions are always likely to clash.

The Forums are the Forums....Personal baiting is a NO GO in my opinion and some are more guilty than others..some bear grudges from arguements lost, others do not.

Ought It be best left on file.... ?

STS
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  #73  
Old 17-June-2001, 02:04
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I agree with Tebbies post!
A lot of replies here are subjective, assumptious and down right nonsensical.
It's true that some adults given the chance to rehabilitate works! But if all could be rehabilitated then our prisons would be virtually empty.
No one can categorically asume what was going through the minds of those children when they comitted this horrendous crime. When I think about what they did (and being a father of three one of them about the same age as Jamie) it makes me shudder.
Setting aside my emotions I've tried to think about this issue logically and here are my thoughts.
IMHO the reason these two lads are going to be set free is because of the fact they were children at the time. There is far more of a chance of rehabilitating a child than there is a mature adult.
There's no doubt in my mind that these boys will have been made to face the horror of what they did. Also they would have recived a tremendous amount of councilling over the past eight of nine years they have been inside!
There original sentance before being comuted by the court of human rights was "Her Majesties Pleasure". In other words this sentence could be anything for a year to life. They would have been freed when the home secretary decided to set them free. In other words it was decided from the beginning that they wouldn't spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Now the experts must be agreed that these boys are ready to be reintroduced back into society. If they didn't think that, this thread wouldn't exsist.
Now for those who say they haven't changed is foolish to do so. How the hell do we know.
Tebbie mentioned that they may put something useful back into society.
I give you the example of Jimmy Boyl. A nasty vicious evil muderer from the "gang land"areas of Glasgow. Even the prison authorities couldn't control him. They just left him locked up in a cell 24 hours a day, scared to go near him.
Now this man is a well respected sociologist who has done more good in his life for others, than a good few people.
I could go on with examples but the point is he decided to change and change he did. This could very well be the same fot these two boys.
Now then why give them a new identity? Two reasons 1) To protect these boys and 2) To protect others from going to prison and facing a life sentence for bumping them off.
Because they were children and on this fact alone, they should be given another chance.
For all we know these boys could have been released already! This is how much the government realise that some "TOSSER" will take the law into his own hands and how outraged the public are about their release.
Children are inheritantly evil like it or not. One doesn't have to teach a child to be naughty or to tell a lie. Remember you werek kids once! Or maybe some of you have got your heads so far into the clouds you forget this?
People do change and more so children. If you bring a child up in the way he should go he won't fall into error and heaven knows these boys have had a lot of that whilst in prison.

Yours
Beef.

Last edited by The Beef; 17-June-2001 at 02:09.
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  #74  
Old 17-June-2001, 09:52
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I think you're right Beef, that these boys may have changed. Trouble is we don't that. I don't think the 'experts' can really know that either. It's very easy to pretend to have changed in order to be released. The question then is, are we willing to take the risk? Are the rights of these two to be given a second chance, greater than the rights of the rest of us not to be made to take the risk of them repeating their crime?

Who knows?

Ann
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  #75  
Old 17-June-2001, 10:33
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I watched a very interesting programme a few months ago about the murder of a child (a 6 year old girl) by two slightly older boys in Norway.

The Norwegian attitude was that children cannot be judged by adult standards and that the prime aim was to rehabilitate the children who had committed this horrendous act.

The children concerned were placed under close supervision, and returned to their homes and regular schooling as soon as the Norwegian experts felt it safe to do so. All the parents of the children at the school that the two boys were to attend were consulted and there were hardly any objections.

What struck me was the attitude of the dead girl's mother. Although severely traumatised by the murder, she took the view that you could not shut up little children in prison; but that, as she could not judge the two boys by adult standards (and she didn't want to judge them by such standards) she found it difficult not having someone to blame for her daughter's death.

I hope the two Norwegian boys are rehabilitated successfully. And I hope that when the two British young men are let out (they will be, one day) they will have been rehabilitated successfully so that they are not a danger to the rest of us. And I hope that one day the Bulger family are able to come to terms with their tragic loss; unless it happens to you, you can't have much idea of how they feel.

I haven't got any particular axe to grind; I'm just interested in what works best, and if Norwegian and other methods end up with a better result in terms of rehabilitation and a useful contribution by former criminals to the wellbeing of the community, then maybe they are worth further study.

Mike

Last edited by OurCreature; 17-June-2001 at 10:35.
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  #76  
Old 17-June-2001, 12:12
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Tebbie - "For all anyone knows, they could be as normal now as any of us are."

Normal ? Like the rest of us ? I'm sorry, "normal" people don't go around abducting and murdering little boys and throwing bricks into their innocent heads then leave them to die by getting hit by a train

Tebbie - "Let them have a chance to give something back to society..."

Give them a chance ? WHY ? They are criminals, murderers, they don't deserve chances as they have done wrong, broken the law, commited a sickening crime against a poor child.

What chances does little James Bulger have ?

NONE. Because his life was wiped out by these 2 evil, sick ********.

I don't care if these 2 are now full of regret and apologies 8 years down the line, they took a life and should pay for that with there own.

They are murderers, full stop.

You don't give murderers a second chance. Look at the high number of repeat offenders caught after comitting similar crimes upon release from prison etc.

But with these 2, murder is murder. No one should get away with that, and 8 years inside a "unit" has not punished them.

A LIFE FOR A LIFE.
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  #77  
Old 17-June-2001, 12:28
STS
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Hi,

Just published on "Ananova"

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_329142.html

STS
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  #78  
Old 17-June-2001, 12:33
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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Thankyou STS, here it is :

Bulger killer bids for release

One of the schoolboy killers of toddler James Bulger will meet a parole board on Monday.

Jon Venables, who will attend the meeting at a secret location, could be freed within days if the panel decides he is no longer a risk to the public.

Robert Thompson, Venables' partner in the February 1993 murder, will attend a separate hearing on Wednesday and is also expected to be freed in the near future.

Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf effectively ended the boys' tariff - the minimum period they must spend in custody - last October. He ruled that it would not be beneficial for the boys to spend time in the "corrosive atmosphere" of an adult prison.

The teenagers were also granted an open-ended High Court injunction protecting their anonymity when they are freed from detention with new identities.

Family Division President Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss said she was convinced their lives would be at risk if their identities and whereabouts were disclosed. She said she was "compelled" to take steps to protect them, even though they were now adults.

The two killers, who are both 19 in August, have spent their entire detention period in local authority-run secure accommodation. It is likely they will be released into a halfway house rather than given full freedom immediately.

Parole Board spokeswoman Ann Barker said she was not able to discuss the cases as the board is "abiding by the spirit and the letter of the injunction".

Dee Warner, of pressure group Mothers Against Murder and Aggression, said protesters will hold a demonstration outside the Parole Board's London headquarters on Monday.

The families of murder victims will be among the crowd, but James's parents, Ralph Bulger and Denise Fergus, are not expected to attend.

Solicitors for both killers refused to discuss the parole hearings.

Story filed: 10:10 Sunday 17th June 2001


NO ! NO ! NO !
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  #79  
Old 18-June-2001, 08:21
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Yep, just been on Breakfast News, the Parole Board is meeting in London today to decide what should happen to Thompson and Venables... the news report said if it goes in their favour, they could be freed within the next 3 days with new identities etc

Please do NOT let this happen, if there *is* any justice in this world please do NOT let them out
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  #80  
Old 18-June-2001, 11:19
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From yesterday's Observer:

Few details are known about the men who these two boys from deeply troubled homes have become. Much cannot be published. In 1993 they were capable of taking a two-year-old and dropping him on his head, abusing him, throwing paint in his eyes, throwing bricks at him, hitting him with metal bars and finally placing his body on railway tracks in the hope that a train might cut it in half.

Now, according to Lord Chief Justice Woolf who reviewed their sentences last year, they are changed. He quoted the report of a consultant adolescent forensic psychiatrist who said that Venables 'has made exceptional development, [with] acknowledgment of the enormity of his offence and understanding of his actions as a child'.

Thompson, who yawned in court as the murder was described, has also made 'exceptional progress in his current placement with regard to maturity, education and insight gained in therapy', the report said.

He now 'accepts responsibility for the grave acts he committed and shows great remorse for the pain and suffering he caused,' the psychiatrist concluded.

Crucially the report stated that 'neither [boy] has shown any aggression or propensity for violence during his detention'. It may be that the intensive rehabilitation undergone by the boys - involving therapy, one-to-one education and continuous supervision and monitoring - has worked.
Full story here: http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/st...508184,00.html
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  #81  
Old 18-June-2001, 11:40
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Or so they would have us believe......

Ann.....ever the cynic!
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  #82  
Old 18-June-2001, 12:43
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I will say it until I'm blue in the face, they should never ever be released.
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  #83  
Old 18-June-2001, 13:37
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The mob must not rule
======================

While a spirit of hatred and vengeance stalks the land, James Bulger's killers can never be safe.

The picture doing the furtive rounds in Merseyside is a digital shot of a teenage boy. Three-quarters visible, he is walking in the shadow of an adult male companion. The boy's face is clear but not distinctive.
Vigilantes say this is Robert Thompson, who killed James Bulger, but young adults are an amorphous tribe. Sift through any football crowd and you would find a dozen near-replicas of the photo face. The lynch mob, in seeking to pursue Thompson, may harm or murder someone else by mistake. There are no certainties if the picture goes public. Most probably, it will.

Tomorrow, the parole board will begin two separate hearings on the release of Thompson and Jon Venables, who have served the eight-year tariff set by the Lord Chief Justice for James's murder and are expected to be freed before their nineteenth birthdays in August.

'Kill them,' the crowd screamed as the boys, aged 10, were driven from Preston Crown Court. That hatred, unassuaged, drives those who believe that, when the state goes soft, hard men must sculpt their own justice. Although the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, last week warned the media to observe the lifetime ban protecting the killers' identity, it seems likely that the alleged snapshot of Thompson will be posted on a foreign website.

If so, the only recourse might be to widen Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss's injunction and prevent the image being printed on 'Wanted' posters here. When global communication emasculates the law, the media and citizens grow powerful.

The endgame of James Bulger's murder is a showcase for warped potency. A Sunday People story alleging that Thompson had tried to strangle a boy with a flex collapsed when it emerged that he was the victim, not the aggressor. The paper's account of another fight was a lie based on crudely-forged documents.

On Thursday, BBC2 will screen a 'personal' account of the murder by Albert Kirby. Since Kirby was the senior investigating police officer, it seems doubtful that he has any business getting personal.

If his kitchen-table chats with Denise Fergus, James's mother, look unprofessional, then his recall of how the crime scene suggested 'sexual perversion' is worryingly bizarre. Channel 4's Dispatches last week exploded widespread, much-repeated stories of sexual violation, suggestive of an even viler crime and a greater propensity to reoffend.

The pathologist who examined James Bulger's body told the programme there were no such injuries. Why does the detail matter now? Because of the bearing on the killers' minds, but also because old images are indelible.

A child is led from a shopping centre, his fist placed trustingly in the hand of a bigger boy. A small corpse lies on a railway line, the head smashed by an iron plate and the body severed by a train. The picture may not alter. The interpretation does. Shock and sorrow fermented, long ago, to poison.

Thompson and Venables will emerge from their secure units as novice human beings. A few shopping trips or outings to Old Trafford, deplored by the right-wing press, are not a training in how to live. On one hand, the boys know nothing. On the other, their experience exceeds anything a normal 18-year-old could countenance or bear.

If, as they must, they watch television and read newspapers, they take the weight not only of guilt but of the leaden hatred of those claiming the purest of motives.

In a society so muddled about children, mixed messages are nothing new. We cut down the chestnut trees of Bluebell Road, Norwich, lest a schoolboy be harmed by a falling conker, but we send 17-year-olds to war. We are terrified for our children and by our children in equal measure.

Thus Thompson and Venables are demonised as pack leaders of the curfew kids, robbers, joyriders and all those perceived as the architects of social blight rather than its victims. Then there is James Bulger, bouncing on his trampoline with his gold curls swaying and viewed proprietorially by anyone ever beguiled by a small child's milky scent.

Commentators always refer to him as 'Jamie', as if he were their own baby. His real parents have only ever called him James.

But vulnerability has other faces, In addition to the new Thompson picture, whose existence was revealed in Deborah Davies's rigorous and thoughtful Dispatches , the programme contained previously unseen pictures of the killers aged 10. Newspapers which copied the Venables shot, technically covered by the publicity ban, have been reported to the Attorney General. He is unlikely to act.

The issue is not identification but the unease instilled by sweet-faced boys with rosebud lips and a leaning to kill. Now, it seems, they are cured and we are not. What sort of society produces vigilantes who exploit a dead child's memory as justification for revenge? Who do we blame? In part, the media avengers. In part, Michael Howard, who applied an illegal, crowd-pleasing tariff. In part, a yearning to punish rather than to save.

Eighty per cent of those sent to the 'corrosive' young offenders institutions deplored by Lord Woolf reoffend within two years. A trickle of children get killed or hang themselves in their cells. The lassitude evoked by such brutality inevitably creates a climate in which some lives are deemed more expendable than others.

When Ralph Bulger, James's father, spoke of 'hunting down' Thompson and Venables, he elicited much private sympathy and scarcely any public expression of revulsion. Denise Fergus, while dignified and brave, believes the courts had a duty to honour her wish that the boys should graduate to punishment in adult jail.

Maybe she was encouraged by unwise political and judicial emphasis on victims' voices to believe that sorrow constitutes a parallel jurisdiction. Now, although she does not condone plans to publish the Thompson picture, her spokesman is reported as saying that 'she understands the feelings and motives of anyone who might feel driven to flout the law. She would not condemn them for acting out of frustration'.

While Mrs Fergus's grief places her beyond reproach, such a sanction is chilling. The protest movement she founded may abhor vigilantes, but its creed of unforgivingness is a crucible for less scrupulous forces. The Justice For James campaign now looks anachronistic, even threatening. Its time is up.

Justice, irrespective of the name tag stitched to it, has been done. There is no cause to fight and no prize to win, beyond the ruin of other lives. Somehow, those who advise Mrs Fergus have to tell her that. As for the vengeful wing of the media, expect a wave of bloodlust when the Home Office announces that Thompson and Venables are to be released on licence.

Last week, Timothy McVeigh died in sanitised peace after a litre of mint choc-chip ice-cream and a poetry reading. This week, barring a last-minute reprieve, Juan Garza will follow him to the Terre Haute execution chamber as civilised Britain shivers over America's lack of clemency.

Does the absence of a death penalty make us less barbarous? Not when a brutal or misguided minority sees Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, punished now and hopefully redeemed, as dead men walking.

http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/st...508133,00.html
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  #84  
Old 18-June-2001, 20:10
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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Thankyou, see my last post.

Last edited by MegaTsunami; 19-June-2001 at 08:04.
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  #85  
Old 18-June-2001, 23:13
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I have followed this thread since the start and the last posting about acquiring the pictures of the two boys is the most worrying one I have read. Why would you want the photographs, what will you benefit from it?

A copy was shown to one of the boys' 'friends' from the detention centre and even he could not identify it. If the photos, which seem to be of poor quality, were circulated you would get every lame-brain in the country threatening every person who they thought were one of the two.

I remember when a paediatricians' house was attacked because the idiots could not differentiate between her job title and the word 'paedophile'. It was as a result of the News of the Worlds' campaign so one would have thought they could have got the gist. This is the reason why Law is best left to the Government and not to the mob.

If you want the photos and as you have spent some time searching for them I would suggest you type 'urgent counselling' into a search engine.

Human behaviour never ceases to amaze me.
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  #86  
Old 19-June-2001, 00:14
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Sorry, SeaviewUK was quite right to post the "other point of view" that appeared in The Observer. I should have included both links. My apologies.

Oh and Mega... I think the whole point of this thread (originally) was should the picture be published on the internet so I don't think you'll be lucky getting a copy.

John

Last edited by bouncingjohn; 19-June-2001 at 00:19.
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  #87  
Old 19-June-2001, 08:02
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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Thanks to whoever sent me what I was curious to see. I shall now edit the above post.
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  #88  
Old 19-June-2001, 08:21
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Well was obvious they couldnt stop the photo being circulated - but is it him - how can you be sure?

Even if it was him - I wouldnt like to circulate it myself - if somone ends up getting killed I would feel partly responsible if I had been sending it to people. It wouldnt be only the kid who suffered - they put people in prison for murder if they arent children..

2p

Sil
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Old 19-June-2001, 08:30
MegaTsunami MegaTsunami is offline
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Morning sil,

It looks like him but I can't be sure. There is no way I could know.

I just wanted to see it for myself out of curiousity. And I will take no action after seeing this photograph, and certainly won't distribute it (despite my strong feelings on this issue).

In fact, I have now just deleted it.

Time to move on please.... back to whether or not people think they will be freed within the next 7 days ?
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  #90  
Old 19-June-2001, 09:42
Stryder
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The worrying thing is that some dim-wit has sent a photo to someone that s/he does not know, the accuracy of which is unclear and unchecked. That person should be banned from their ISP and they really need to sit down and think seriously (if they are capable of clear thought) about the outcome of such idiotic gestures. How many more will get the photo? This is precisely what I was worried about in my last post. Perhaps the gormless person who sent the photo ought to read about the Salem witch trials and the penny might drop!
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