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#31
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Did anyine notice this BTW:
So are you suggesting that PhonepayPlus will only deal with complaints about unsolicited promotional SMS [...] and that your standard procedure is to reject complaints about unsolicited reverse charge SMS [...]? We certainly do investigate complaints about reverse billed SMS services if they appear to breach our Code of Practice This is clearly a taboo subject for PP+ - even though it is a taboo they have to break every day in their adjudication work. Very odd. We ought to be able to infer something from this, but I am not quite sure what we can infer. ![]() *a peculiarity noted not just by me but by some of the industry consultees. |
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#32
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Another reply:
Re: Unsolicited text messages from Antiphony, shortcode 86111 Last edited by mike99; 30-March-2009 at 11:32. |
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#33
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And my response:
Dear Mr Senior PPPerson . Interesting to learn that PP+ simply don't have the resources to investigate all complaints* - especially since (following pleadings from the PRS industry) PP+ have just voted themselves a resource cut in "real" terms.*I had feared a more ulterior motive for their curious rejection letters. I suppose we should (in some ways) be reassured by this news. Last edited by mike99; 30-March-2009 at 14:09. |
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#34
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http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs1...09%20FINAL.pdf The problem is of course is that the vast majority of people complaining to Phonepayplus are not 'customers' or 'consumers'. They are not complaining about faulty goods or services. Most are not complaining about services that are non-compliant with the ppp code. Many of the services may indeed appear compliant with the ppp code. The obvious problem with the ppp complaints procedure is that they automatically treat all complaints as customer complaints. Simply referring to the complainant as a customer is not good enough. Most are complaining about the unauthorized debiting of mobile phone accounts. This is clearly an area that ppp does not address or appear to have remit over. It is obviously an area that the Network Operator has to address. |
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#35
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Good job there Mike!
One thing that stands out is that if you're PAYG (and foolish* enough to delete premium texts you never asked for) you're basically screwed. That this comes from PP+, who pride themselves on their kids/teens Phonebrain site does take the biscuit (for want of a better word). Most people that haven't been scammed (or don't know they've been) will often delete such messages before opening them as they think, quite rightly (yet quite wrongly!), that one shouldn't (and couldn't) get charged for something that wasn't asked for and hasn't been opened. And the other thing that stands out is how they've admitted there's an ongoing increase, year on year, of such complaints and yet they're not increasing their budget or hiring new staff. Normally one could say it's because of the current economical climate, but in PP+'s case, they should be doing quite well out of all these additional scams (as, obviously, it's the fines that keep them in "business"). Unfortunately, as we well know, they're wrong. *in the topsy-turvy world of PRS this does indeed make you foolish |
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#36
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Most are complaining about the unauthorized debiting of mobile phone accounts. This is clearly an area that ppp does not address or appear to have remit over. It is obviously an area that the Network Operator has to address. Interesting though that PP+ seem to be aware of their shortcomings. |
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#37
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Again, to be scrupulously fair, PP+ says that it uses the fines to reduce the levy. PP+ claims to live only from the industry levy and administration charges.
Trouble is, of course, the distinction being made here is difficult to see. If PP+ reduce the levy by £X because they have collected £X in fines, they are then using £X to live on themselves. The money is the proceeds of crime - or would be regarded as such an any other domain. And however you describe PP+'s various income streams, the continuing supply relies on the continued existence of PRS crime. If everyone started complying with the Code, there would be no fines and the levy would go up. The likes of WIN and mBlox would then object very strongly(and with some justification) to this and PP+ would be forced to contract. The only conclusion can be that PP+ have a vested interest in the status quo and a steady stream of crimes to investigate. Bit of a conflict of interests if you ask me. Last edited by mike99; 30-March-2009 at 16:42. |
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#38
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BTW, here are some blogs:
Gia's Blogg and here: FreshPlastic and here: Mobile Industry Review and here: Gerry Attrics Last edited by mike99; 30-March-2009 at 17:32. |
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#39
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Gia's blog article got like a 100x more comments than any of mine on the subject! :o(
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#40
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The questions you are raising in your latest communication with PPP sound so familiar to me from communications with the German Federal Net Agency...
But - for what reason ever - I want to say a few words about regulation in general here...UK regulation has its better sides and its worse sides compared to German regulation. One of the really good points in UK regulation is, that adjudications are public matter. The names of the companies are mentioned and the reasons for fines as well. Most of the other aspects are equally desastrous in the UK as in Germany (especially when the topic is the assistance for the complainants - I have to tell you that from what I know it's better in the UK compared to Germany for many reasons... hard to belive?). But one (important!) issue is even worse in the UK: The decriminalization... In Germany we have had very very very few cases where Premium Rate Fraud has been a topic for criminal investigations and for the courts - in the UK I do not know any case (Remember the Danish Dialler Godfather who was sentenced in Germany but was not even investigated in the UK - although he did use the same diallers in the UK). Another point of frustration (to me) is the problem of "refusing responsibility" (if you want: lack of due diligence): We did a lot of investigation on this board and in many cases we could easily show how the offshore companies in Farawayland are related to European companies. This is a very important aspect because it shows that in much too many cases the "rotten apples" are just the poisoned fruits of the PRS "money trees" that have their roots in Europe/US. The "rotten apple theory" is the one lie about PRS that had and has the most serious consequences for the consumers. The fact that ICSTIS/PPP acts more publicly than (e.g.) the German regulator makes it easier to show how often PRS crooks on the Virgin Island or in Panama are well known "players" in the PRS industry, the problem itself is the same in Germany. The "rotten apple theory" is the number one reason for a lack of regulation anywhere in the world... And what about the offshore companies? Of course a regulator can swagger about the instruments it has in fighting PRS crooks - but if a regulator does so knowing that it's not the whole truth then the regulator is nothing but a part of the problem... An example: If a regulator does not explain to the public (that is not that deep into it) that (for example) the barring of company X is not stopping the same crooks from going on by using a new company Y then the regulator is cheating the public. And this is happening all the time... (and there's no difference in Germany) In the UK they have started to use a list of providers that should not get any PRS numbers - that's a good idea, although it comes a decade to late... After more than five years of investigating I have to admit that I do not hold any regulator in high esteem... regulation as we know it is laissez-faire in disguise. With due respect I still think that Jeffrey Robinson once did say all you have to say when he declared ICSTIS should be taken out back and horse whipped because they're full of crap http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/11/phone_scammers/ And here is a great statement from Westminster... It seems hard to suggest that the world would be a worse place if we did not have premium rate telephone numbers. (Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op), Westminster 29/06/2004) Mr Lazarowicz is - by the way - also a victim of the "rotten apple lie" My initial view is that, as the majority of the industry is responsible, it would be sad if the activities of a minority wiped out an industry. I hope that we can improve the regulatory system in the way that I am suggesting, which would mean that the fraud was wiped out, but would enable the legitimate industry to survive[*]. I do not rule out abolition in the long term, but I think that it would be a bit defeatist to go for that option at this stage. In Germany there have been new rules to dialler services in 2003. Most of the international comments at that time just said "Diallers are forbidden in Gewrmany". Funnily, a big German company said the same - the mother company of Crosskirk (remember Greenock SL?). That means: One of the biggest German dialler company said "Diallers are forbidden" although only rogue diallers have been forbidden. What does that mean? Between 2003 and 2005 there have been ongoing problems with dialler services in Germany because the crooks did bend the laws as far as they have been allowed to. The German Federal Net Agency was completely helpless. In 2005 a new rule was installed. Now diallers have to clearly tell the people the prize of the service. Nothing more. There was no more possibility to hide the prize, because they had to use a standardised black and white information text with the prize. The regulator said "Great, now we won't have any crooks anymore". And what did happen? The dialler was dead, from one day to the next. You could not find any relevant dialler service from that time on. What does that mean? You know what that means: no rotten apples, but a rotten tree. And if that proliferating tree cannot be "regulated" it must be cut down.
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"There's something rotten in the State of Denmark" The idea that governments should protect citizens against the excesses of free enterprise has been replaced with the idea that governments should protect business activities against the excesses of democratic regulation. --Sharon Beder Last edited by Hamlet; 30-March-2009 at 19:52. |
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#41
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http://forum.vodafone.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26978 and Vodafone was responsible for the unauthorized debiting of the account (and pocketing 20%) anyway with the 28 day 'revenue withhold' policy...Vodafone still has all the stolen money in their account. Last edited by El Gringo; 06-June-2009 at 18:16. |
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#42
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22 January 2009 http://forum.vodafone.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26978
Last edited by El Gringo; 07-June-2009 at 21:14. |
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#43
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BTW, Phonepayplus have told me that they are about to rule on the free unsolicited messages which Antiphony sent me. Been a long 12 weeks!
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#44
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that will be interesting
because the previous case: ALLEGED BREACH ONE LEGALITY (Paragraph 5.2) Under Regulation 22 of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, it is an offence to send unsolicited promotions using electronic mail (including text messages) for direct marketing purposes, unless (1) the recipient has specifically consented to receiving such promotions. Decision: UPHELD problem is.............."Phonepayplus have told me that they are about to rule on the free unsolicited messages" what is 10% of free
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#45
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I was beginning to get a bit fed up of waiting ......
Dear Mr SeniorPPPperson |
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#46
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I received a reply:
Mike99 |
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#47
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So I thought I'd ask a question:
Dear Mr SeniorPPPperson |
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#48
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A sort of answer:
Mike99 |
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#49
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Me being facetious again:
Mr SeniorPPPperson |
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#50
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Then a holding response:
Dear Mike99 |
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#51
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And most recently this rambling & confusing response that would seem to indicate that PP+ are no further forward with this then when they first rejected my complaint:
Dear Mike99 Curiously, (though they have tightened up in the case of subscription services over £4.50 per week) Phonepayplus insist on continuing to allow sign up mechanisms which continue to lead to fraud and theft as surely as night follows day. Even more curiously, Phonepayplus insist that unsolicited reverse charge "services" are not illegal, though the normally free unsolicited text messages that promote these "services" are. Which brings me to my main point. My case was nothing to with "legal" unsolicited reverse charge "services", it was to do with "illegal" unsolicited promotional messages: "spam". Personally, I am far less concerned about free spam than I am about (let's not mince words) PRS companies stealing money from me or my family, but since PP+ refused to investigate a case where a Dialogue Communications "Information Provider" did exactly that - citing, as a reason, that unsolicited reverse charge "services" are not illegal - I thought I should pursue this case instead. It would appear, from the above letter that Phonepayplus have no mechanisms or rules in place to decide whether free spam is solicited or not. So, even though PP+ accept that unsolicited promotional text messages are illegal, they cannot say what constitutes being "unsolicited" in a particular case. The ICO also have responsibilities in this area, but the ICO make PP+ look like a regulator.
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#52
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PS since I first began reporting on this case, PP+ have changed the URL of the Antiphony adjudication to: http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/outpu...cations-1.aspx - actually they seem to have prevented the creation of URLs to adjudications altogether. but you can find the cas if you go to the above link and search for "Antiphony Limited" under the "service provider" - though I think Antiphony were really the content provider here.
Nope, can't find a workaround PP+'s new adjudication link prevention software, so here's the text just pasted in: 22 January 2009 Last edited by mike99; 20-June-2009 at 22:55. |
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#53
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continued:
Complaint Investigation |
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#54
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and ..........
SUBMISSIONS AND CONCLUSIONS |
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#55
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and ....
ALLEGED BREACH TWO |
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#56
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and
Reason 3 |
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#57
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and
ALLEGED BREACH THREE |
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#58
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and finally:
ALLEGED BREACH FIVE |
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#59
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@Mike99
Quote: Decision: NOT UPHELD · A formal reprimand; ![]() · A £30,000 fine. It's the same old story, they get away with it...... |
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#60
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And it's now a rather long story - I didn't realize that this adjudication was so long and that I'd need to split it into so many segments. It's only incidently relevant.
I hope we can come up with better workaround for the new PP+ links. |
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| abuse, company, comparison, credit, dating, delay, email, free, happy, international, key, mail, mobile, network, phone, phonepayplus, premium rate, public, scam, share, sms, survey, vodafone, volume, web, wireless |
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