Middle class family money question

[squidgy]

Course, many of you know the story now about me - I'm in lots of debt, but I've also taken lots of time off work sick in the last year. I reckon I could have got income support, incapacity benefit or statutory sick pay, but that would have meant seeing the doctor. Which I was somewhat embarrassed about doing. As a result, I got nothing at all. Except perhaps a bit of income based jobseekers allowance when I felt better but found myself out of a job.

But now I'm not so embarrassed. But I still have the credit card balances to show for it.

My parents, bless them, they want to help. Course, I never used to be keen to accept handouts from them in the past, for two reasons. The first is that I was always worried that they would ask me to justify my lifestyle to them later on, again, embarrassing. But I think I can swallow my pride on that one now. More to the point, if I keep the credit card accounts active, I can offer them all the money back with no notice if they start asking questions.

The second reason still applies though - and that is, I'm paranoid about HM Customs and Excise finding out about it! No kidding! That's why they ask you if you have a job or any savings. Think about it - it's every bit as illegal to sell cigarettes and tobacco to your parents without paying duty as it is to sell them to anyone else. So if they investigate my finances one day to find out where I got the money to buy my fags from, and happen to notice odd unexplained cash receipts here and there, how are they to know that these really are gifts, and not actually payments for fags that I've sold illegally? I'm worried that they might confiscate goods I buy, and I'll have to buy fags at UK prices - which could turn out to cost far more than the value of any cash gifts from my parents anyway, unless the gifts are exceptionally big.

Is there a way of donating money to a relative such that if Customs question the beneficiary about it, they're able to prove that it's legitimate? Thanks.

[silver]

I think (I am not an accountant!) that gifts totaling less that your allowance (umm, I forget the name and amount for the allowance ) don't need to be declared. I presume you don't fill out a self assessment tax form every year and probably don't want to.. it's a pain

anyway whether you choose to break the law is another matter entirely..

Sil

[squidgy]

That's all very well for income tax, but the way that Customs see things is different. It seems that the assumption is that any money you ever receive which you can't explain, is, in fact, a payment you've received for illegally selling cigarettes and tobacco without paying duty. If this wasn't the case, then why do they ask to see payslips and bank statements at the border controls?

Course, they can't actually arrest you and bang you up for fraud if they don't have proof, but it's a civil law area. If they think it's possible that it might be dodgy, then that's grounds enough for them to take your fags off you. Or worse still, impound your car. I'm not kidding about that. It's not up to them to prove that you're doing something naughty, it's up to you to prove that you're not.

In the past, it's occurred to me that if a rellie does want to give you pocket money or something, but you want beer, wine and fags, then say to them, don't give me any money, instead, give me beer, wine and fags. They can then go and get it themselves, and hopefully they ought to be in the position to prove that it's kosher. You're allowed to make personal gifts of goods bought in Europe, it's just that you're not allowed to sell them.

But do I really want to say to my mum "Thanks for offering me money, but can I get you to keep the money, and hop the channel, get some fags and give those to me instead?"

Icky one. Surely there must be a better way than that .....

[Steed]

Hi squidgy,

Am I missing something obvious, if your rellies want to help then surely they would be happy to confirm that they made you a gift if the customs ask. End of problem.

Have you had trouble with the customs before?, I don't think I'd give it a second thought, if the money is yours & you are not selling the fags there's nothing to worry about.



Steed

[fabienne00]

ASk your rellies for cash! (and don't put it in the bank)

[squidgy]

Hmm, true. So I guess there might be a phone call or letter to the benefactors then. Perhaps it's a good idea to make them aware of that beforehand .....

You see, what I'm trying to do is think in the way that a real jobsworth goon might think - because if I'm aware of what the worst case scenario will be, then I'll be able to prepare myself to deal with it.

After all - imagine that illegal stuff really was going on. Imagine that you have bought fags from someone. Your supplier says that it's important for you not to blow their cover. So, if Customs ever ask you what the money was for, you say it was a gift. How difficult would it be to set that up? Can you not see the potential for this happening?

If absolutely any transactions could be labelled as a gift, then it means that absolutely any investigation on the part of Customs, the police or banks into money laundering, drug trafficking or arms dealing will inevitably come to a dead end, and no-one would ever get caught.

Here's another way of looking at it. In theory, you have every right to make a gift of money or goods to anyone you choose, without having to give anyone any reason or justification for it. But in practice, people simply don't do that. Everyone looks after their money. No-one gives it out to all and sundry. Might be nice if everyone did, but it simply doesn't happen. No - whenever a gift is given, there is usually a reason why the benefactor thinks it's a good idea.

So, I'm imagining a scenario whereby Customs ask me why one of my relatives choose to give me money. Do I really want to go into details? How much detail is necessary? Course, I'm sure that if I explained the whole story, then it should be fine, but I'd really rather not do that, as I'm sure you'll understand. Not because it's illegal, but because it's simply embarrassing.

In the event that anyone has any experience of justifying any sort of gift to Customs, I'd be interested to hear about it. Thanks.

[MegaTsunami]

EDITED - IT'S PRIVATE NOW !

Good luck to you though !

[squidgy]

Well done to MT by the way. Keep it up, you're being an inspiration to me right now!

fabienne says take the cash and don't bank it. Course, chances are, that's exactly what's going to happen anyway. However, I was kinda hoping to use it to pay off some of my credit cards. If I were to keep a big wad of cash under the mattress, and not actually use it to pay any of my bills, then that would (a) be bordering on paranoia, and (b) defeat the point of actually having the cash in the first place.

Okay, admittedly I could do it by spending the cash in the shops, and using wages or state benefits to pay bills instead, so that I don't incur any more - but what if they cotton on to this sudden change? Admittedly it's highly unlikely, but I think that if they do, it makes it look even more suspicious then. Everyone knows that spending dirty money in hotels and supermarkets is relatively easy, but using it to pay rent or utility bills is slightly more difficult, credit card bills even more difficult again, but paying it into a current account or savings account is the most difficult of all.

Quick reality check though - I'm on medications for anxiety. Making mountains out of molehills is a known symptom, I definitely do this from time to time. At the moment, this Customs - gift issue isn't worrying me too much, I'm not losing sleep about it. But it bothers me a little bit. And I can imagine that if I don't have my mind put at rest about it now, then, when I next travel to restock, it's going to become an obsession. Anxiety attacks trigger IBS attacks, and I really don't want to get the runs on the coach, or in the Carrefour checkout queue!

Thanks for advice so far though.

[herne70]

Your thread brings to mind a pal I used to drink with when I lived in the Midlands.

He had no regular income from employment but was never short of anything and always standing more rounds than anyone else and always there were people enquiring after him and waiting
for him to appear etc........

He accepted an invite to my Party asking if it was OK to bring some one and in the event had more people popping in & out than I did and brought tons of Booze/Fags including selling plenty and taking orders ahead .

He stayed over and told me at breakfast that his whole family lived on their wits and one scam was based on obtaining cheap trips to France ( Newspaper Offers in The Mail etc and others )
and using people replying to Dating/Escort ads to pair up and bring back booze/fags.....he financed them with the Fees they
paid for intros. He then recruited suitable people from them to pair up as often as he had Free Trips and paid them a commission
on purchases making his sales from contacts in pubs mainly.

Seemed always happy and relaxed but I don't think I could have
stood the pace and pressure !

Hi,

It's 3 Grand a year to any recipient.... To evade taxation that is. Just how the pyramid schemes work for a maximum investment w-out tax.

STS

[squidgy]

STS and silver have both completely missed the point by talking about income tax. I don't even spend a fraction of that amount on the continent, so I figure that Customs might get funny about cash amounts significantly less than £3000 per year. Even if you get more than that, and declare it to the Inland Revenue as a gift and pay income tax on it, I don't see how that stops Customs thinking that it's an illegal baccy sale. You're unlikely to spend £3000 on fags to smoke yourself, but it's not unthinkable that you might pay that money then resell them onto other people in turn. The income tax rates on gifts are substantially less than the duty rates on cigarettes and tobacco, unless I'm greatly mistaken, or you're selling incredibly expensive cigs.

herne70> wow! Did he get away with it? How's he doing now?

Course, the other possibility is that I could give up smoking .... because then it wouldn't be a problem. Now why didn't I think of that earlier?

Okay, I'm fairly cool now, but it still worries me a little bit. So more info would be appreciated if anyone has any. Perhaps I'll phone up Customs in the next day or two and ask them about it directly.

[fabienne00]

Okay, admittedly I could do it by spending the cash in the shops, and using wages or state benefits to pay bills instead, so that I don't incur any more

That's it, you said it yourself! You can't go wrong with cash!

Hi,

My parents, bless them, they want to help

How quaint..... Do they have a gun ?

STS

[squidgy]

I think I take fb's point now, and that the idea that anyone will think this is suspicious is complete paranoia.

Don't quite understand what STS means about guns yet, though ....

I mean, some people think that if you have rich rellies, it's good to kill them, so that you inherit their money. I think differently, because up until the point that they die and you actually do inherit the money, you're able to claim means tested state benefits. But you can't once they're dead and you inherit their fortune. Duh.

Having said that, whilst they're alive, they're going to be spending their fortune on stuff like food, which obviously isn't any good to you .....

Course, if they're a miserly person, they own their own house and therefore don't pay any rent or mortgage, but the amount that they spend on food and utility bills each week is less than the means tested state benefits you can get, then obviously it's very much worth your while ensuring that they stay alive as long as possible. Not that I'd dream of bumping anyone off anyway ...

I don't believe I've posted this totally crazy thought Have I picked up the wrong end of the stick from STS? If I have, please explain, but if I haven't, perhaps I'll try a bit better to keep it on topic.

[squidgy]

Actually, seriously, I really do love my mum, and I'd be very upset if any harm came to her. It was very tense a few years ago when she had breast cancer, and I'm really pleased that she survived it and that the treatment was successful.

Money and goods can be replaced. People can't be replaced. That's my attitude.

Hi,

Oh god..... How thick are you......

Perhaps you miss the meaning by being totally wrapped up in your self serving world. If it aint on a plate then you seemingly demand service by whatever excuse available.

I take the **** politely (and get PM's which agree) and still you bleat on and on...... I have never EVER considered adding ANYONE to my ignore list.... However you are coming close.

Get a job...... A Life will follow for free.....

Try it and see (without a Dr's Note)

STS <------ ****ed Off Taxpayer.

best i could do STS, could not find a smiley to imitate a round of applause

[Ann]

Squidgy, I think you *are* making a mountain out of a molehill. You know you are actually. Stop worrying about it.

Ann

[squidgy]

Methinks perhaps I've hit a raw nerve with STS somewhere. Whoops. Still, fortunately I happen to be in a better mood today. I could get on my moral high horse and say that STS's remark is grossly insensitive, especially considering that it was me that started this thread, not STS ... but hey, if I wanted to troll, I could do better than that.

squidgy <-- an equally ****ed off taxpayer who's actually trying to do something about it rather than just be taken for a sucker

[squidgy]

Actually, no, I take that back. The question I asked was deadly serious, and STS completely failed to give any sort of useful answer. It's STS that's doing the trolling. The most useful answers have actually come from fabienne, herne, MT and Steed, and no-one else has descended to STS's level (though tony came close), but having said that, no-one's specifically said they've ever been in a situation where this has caused a problem. Which kinda doesn't surprise me. If I was familiar with it, I wouldn't have asked in the first place. Can't believe I've been a sucker for STS's trolling, I'll think twice about it next time.

Still, maybe I'll make one or two phone calls tomorrow and see what the official line is. Thanks to those who've helped.

decending? who's decending, not me!!

the only person who is remotly interested in this is you, certainly not the vat man, customs and excise or the tax man, they have much better things to worry about than a few ciggy's.

as Ann said 'stop making a mountain out of a molehill'

[squidgy]

the only person who is remotly interested in this is you

Okay - so if you're not interested in it, then why have you posted in this thread? There's loads of threads around here that I'm not remotely interested in, but you don't catch me posting in them.

[MegaTsunami]

Listen folks, if you aren't able to help someone when they make a post, don't bother making any sort or reply unless it's helpful okay ? There's no need for bitching/fighting- it's just wasted energy.

Having said the above, I've just made this reply without being able to offer squidgy any advice myself.... oops !

At least it wasn't bitchy/negative.

Peace people please ! Have

Squidgy

it called 'an opinion', it is mine, i am entitled to it, you may not agree with it.

i doubt if you would agree with many of my 'opinions'

but thats how debate starts,

without it life would be boring.

to slightly paraphrase STS - get a life

Hi,

I am a child of the web...... I go where I choose and read what I choose. I also have opinions therefore the more you tell about yourself and the more I read about your so called illnesses and problems the more I am drawn to opinionate upon them.

It's not a private or exclusive forum therefore as long as I remain within the remit of the posting rules and requirements I can pretty much put what I want. I am sure if my posts breach the constraints of the admin or moderators I shall be warned as to my future conduct.

Your Call.......

STS

ps.... I tend to get quite a few PM's agreeing with my comments of late so I guess I am not alone in my sentiment.

hi STS

i tend to post my agreements or otherwise in open forum, on this one i agree with you

pm is ok but!!! and they are not seen by those who they should be!

if it's not woth saying outloud then, generally, it's not worth saying

[katie]

My late mother used to say to me "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

But whoever listens to their mother?

Katie.

[squidgy]

I've definitely sparked something off now! MT's made an incredibly good point.

Right now I'm thinking, any differences in opinion, hey, let's call it quits and be friends, eh? Because I really can't be bothered with them any more. I mean, I can't disagree with the more recent posts made by tony and STS. Hey - look - that's a resolution.

Mind you, it's all very well for debate to start, but it doesn't change the fact that this thread has somehow drifted off topic! I could blame STS for that, but in all honesty, if I took it that seriously, then I wouldn't have made that post about bumping people off to get inheritances. I'm sure everyone here is intelligent enough to realise that.

Negativity and bitchiness doesn't get anyone anywhere. But, hey, sometimes, with the best of intentions, we all accidentally slip into it. There's no point in making a big drama out of it when it does happen, though. But sometimes, it takes a post like the one that MT has just made for us to realise that - so, once again, thanks.

Course, I can't know whether what you say about the PM's you get is true or not, so I can't see the point in you mentioning them. I could throw doubt on it, and then you could try to prove your point by posting them all here, but I bet you won't get so many after that.

[Steed]

Good post Squidgy,

It's just that in this thread you have made a mountain out of a molehill as Ann said and in your usual inimitable style have been good and wordy about it.

I know it's true STS has pm's cos I sent one, I thought his joke about the gun was funny and told hm so.

We all have different views, lifestyles and problems and sometimes we all can't see the other's point of view, personaly I even make mistakes. Given all that its a wonder we all get on most of the time at all.

Well done with the great progress you have made with your probs, I've been there and sometimes that is the only way you can see what it is like.

It's good to have strong, clear views. My prob, I guess is wavering, for example I'm now wondering if this post will offend STS or Squidgy or both or neither

So I'm off for a beer[or 3], lifes too short to worry about this stuff and at least I can be sure that STS will approve of the beer

Steed

[squidgy]

Thanks Steed .... I think it's worthy of a quick update at this stage, and I'll try my best not to make it too wordy.

In the past, my anxiety problems caused me to make mountains out of molehills. Later on, either I would look back at something I had written down, or someone or something would remind me of something I had said, and I would realise that I made a mountain out of a molehill. That would make me think that I was stupid. Result? Well, you know that already.

Now, my anxiety problem (which I'm taking medications for) still causes me to make mountains out of molehills. The difference, however, is that I'm less likely to feel stupid as a result. I will balance it by thinking something more positive. Which is better ....

... but still not quite good enough. Ideally I shouldn't make mountains out of molehills in the first place. So I'll announce now that on the advice of my doctor, I'm going to do a six week stress management course, it starts Monday next week.

So ... wish me luck with it.

A closer look at what has happened in this thread .... course, I suspected that I was making a mountain out of a molehill all along, but didn't quite want to face up to it. Responses have been short, and, for the most part, to the point. Which is good. However, it draws the reality that perhaps I'm making a mountain out of a molehill closer up. I don't like that.

So I deflect, by trying to say something witty or completely off the wall. That's what the post about inheritances and means tested state benefits was all about. But the thought of my mum dying naturally reminded me of the tension everyone family suffered when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. How could I be so insensitive? So I followed that post up pretty quickly with another one, in the hope of making me feel just a bit less guilty.

There you have it. That's what's really been going on in my mind. I feel quite pleased with myself for actually facing up to this reality now.

If I was really really bothered about the original issue, I might have phoned Customs and got a definitive answer by now. But I'm not, so I haven't. If I ever am in the future, then obviously I will. I'm kinda stating the obvious now, but I think that's good, because that might help me keep things in perspective.

Any comments? Thanks.