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  #61  
Old 19-February-2002, 15:25
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Good points, Vic. If anyone else is of a mind that will save me time - I'm overloaded in other directions at the moment ;-)

R
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  #62  
Old 19-February-2002, 17:22
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I'm well aware of the laws regarding bailiffs and entry to property; I made a conscious effort to find out about it when this whole nasty episode started.

The conspiracy theorist in me wants to believe that this field agent is indeed a registered bailiff, but won't be acting as one for the first visit. Therefore, you let him in, and the next time he comes back as a bailiff, he can legitimately gain access.

But, it's all somewhat of a moot point since a court order is required for them to seize property and I can't believe for one second they'd ever get one.
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  #63  
Old 19-February-2002, 21:10
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This post will be forwarded to The Civil Justice Council and to my Member of Parliament for information.

From Reader's Digest "Know your Rights" (1997) it seems IMHO that the Debt Collection agencies and WorldOnLine Tiscali are failing to keep within the law, or the spirit of the law in the procedures they are adopting to collect alleged unpaid debts from Members of "The Scream!"

Debt Collectors A person or company employed to collect unpaid debts must have a licence from the Director General of Fair Trading. To operate without one is a criminal offence. Debt collectors should make polite requests for payment. If payment is not made, they should start court proceedings to recover the debt. They are not entitled to harass debtors by making frequent or threatening demands for payment, or threats to sue for payment. Comments such as "You will hear from us further' could constitute a threat. The debt collector is also forbidden to make debts public - for example, by parking outside a debtor's home in a van marked "Debt Recovery Service", or mentioning the debt to local shopkeepers. It is illegal for a shop to display a list of debtors
Local Trading Standards Officers have received full dossiers concerning several members complaints concerning alleged debts with these Companies and the way their agencies have handled the matter. The Office of Fair Trading has also been consulted. Members of Parliament have also been informed.

Full details are provided at "The Scream" Discussion Forum>Telcos>Tiscali/WorldOnLine/Localtel http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/f...?s=&forumid=30

Despite these representations the Debt Collection Agencies engaged by World On Line and Tiscali have continue to act outside the above guidelines particularly in the points highlighted in red.

Unfortunately we are still hearing about Members of "The Scream!" l being threatened and intimidated despite intimating to the Debt Collection Agencies that they wish to challenge the alleged debts in Court.

In these circumstance you will understand that Members of "The Scream!" feel threatened that entry will be attempted to their properties by either a Certificated bailiff or a Court bailiff despite the fact that the Company that is alleging unpaid bills has not yet taken them to Court.

Is it not time for a change in the law if respectable citizens can be harassed in this way?

Last edited by Worldlife; 19-February-2002 at 21:12.
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  #64  
Old 19-February-2002, 22:17
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Thumbs up Wonderful Reader's Digest

Good on you, Vic - excellent research and a good target.
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  #65  
Old 23-February-2002, 02:06
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Just thought I'd let u know, they dropped the case against me today.

Don't give up.
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  #66  
Old 23-February-2002, 03:06
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Smile Dropped case

Aynglfyre

Well done. I trust the stress will now subside to tolerable levels.


Roger
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  #67  
Old 02-March-2002, 16:12
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Wink Tiscali's debt collectors are going to take me to court

Hi, my account has now closed, hurrahh!!!!!!!!! Hi RTI are you still
taking them to court? If so, please let me know when you need my details by, to help with your case. Kitgem


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  #68  
Old 03-March-2002, 11:05
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Thumbs up Taking to Court

Kitgem - et al.

I am without doubt taking all three parties to court.

I applied to the courts as stated above - and have received a case number - which the court sent by first class post to all defendants on 8th February.

I have heard nothing since - but in one week's time I shall be applying for judgement.

Meanwhile, if it is not too much trouble, I would appreciate any summaries in the format I suggested in an earlier post, repeated here for ease of reference:

If I may - from the hip - suggest the following format for any reports sent to me - a sentence or two for each sub section (more if appropriate) - except the dates of course. This will allow a degree of consistency in any I use for presentation at the courts:

* Date you became aware of the problem:

* The Problem

* Your actions prior to DLC getting involved after you became aware of the problm

* Date DLC got involved

* Whether BOTH DLC AND WOL continued to communicate or just DLC.

* Your actions subsequent to DLCs involvement

* Date Aplins sent 72-hour wonder

* Your actions subsequent to Aplins's involvement.

* The Outcome

Thanks in anticipation.

If you can help, please in the first instance contact me at roger_the_insNOSPAMomniac@yahoo.com (remove NOSPAM), whereupon I will reply privately with a permanent e-mail address.
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  #69  
Old 07-March-2002, 05:41
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Question

Today I have received the "defence" paperwork - along with transfer documentation. I shall transcribe verbatim and then pick brains if I may. I have but a fortnight to complete an "allocation questionaire".

The solicitors have issued a very plausible - and accurate - defence, confirming they've written only a single letter to me.

I included the solicitors as co-defendant as they were a party in the loop and may in the limit have been the only party with a deep pocket by the time the claim came to a hearing. They have only written one letter but it was unequivocal - and if they were true to their word I would have received THEIR summons long ago. Therefore it was a threat with no intention of continuity - I contend harassment - but would welcome opinion.

The Debt Collectors have used the solicitors - their defence paperwork has originated from and been signed on their behalf by the solicitors. They have filed a defence which opens with a similar gambit and denies harassment too.

Their defence is plausible yet only part of the story. I have explained the score to DLC long before they involved solicitors. At that stage I am convinced that the equitable thing for them to do would have been to approach their client with my version of events and verify that they had their ducks in a row. Not so - they went off at half cock - hence the situation I am now in.

Tiscali have, unsurprisingly, not filed a defence.

I also received, rather surprisingly, the following "Notice of transfer of procedings":

To all parties
A defence to this claim has been filed. As the defendant is an individual the claim has been transferred to the court covering the area where the defendant lives or carries on business. Please read the accompanying documents carefully and note that where enclosed the application questionnaire should be returned to XXXX <miles away from me! >

Ok - the above is background, now to my questions:

1) The court swap is a pain - and I think based on specious arguments. The defendant is NOT an individual; it's three disparate companies scattered to the four winds. Can I move to have the case heard back here and if so would it succeed? Box B on the questionnaire asks if there is a reason the claim needs to be held at a particular court. Well - no "need" per se - just didn't fancy a drive to Oxford and I feel that the solicitors have manipulated things.

2) As Tiscali - the main culprit in this matter - has not filed a defence, I am in a quandrary as to how to complete several boxes on the pro forma - which is really only suitable for single defendant scenarios. Any advice here?

3) I have no witnesses per se - no need of any. However, thanks to my on-line friends here I am collecting case studies where people have either sweated it out or capitulated due to being worn down (despite believing they don't owe). Should I call these people as witness or simply refer to these cases (with supplementary documents) now?

5) How long should I estimate for it? The documentation takes an hour to go through so I was thinking around 90 mins.

All help gratefully received.
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  #70  
Old 07-March-2002, 10:55
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Hi Roger,

You are up against some clever cookies here. Don't forget though as a litigant in person the Court do not expect you to be a legal expert but will ensure that questions you raise are answered properly and fairly.

Do not overlook the fact that your opponents will have access to these pages and it is not advisable to demonstrate your weaknesses here.

I'm relying to some extent on rather older editions of "Small claims in the County Court" by the Lord Chancellor's Office and the Consumers' Association "How to sue in the County Court" to support my general knowledge

1) The court swap is a pain - and I think based on specious arguments. The defendant is NOT an individual; it's three disparate companies scattered to the four winds. Can I move to have the case heard back here and if so would it succeed? Box B on the questionnaire asks if there is a reason the claim needs to be held at a particular court. Well - no "need" per se - just didn't fancy a drive to Oxford and I feel that the solicitors have manipulated things.
The address of an individual defendant representing a Company is not relevant.

The contract was made within the district of the Court to which you have first applied and is therefore the Court most appropriate for the case to be heard. That Court is suitable and convenient to you and you do not wish to be involved in the additional costs and inconvenience of the transfer of the case to Oxford

3) I have no witnesses per se - no need of any. However, thanks to my on-line friends here I am collecting case studies where people have either sweated it out or capitulated due to being worn down (despite believing they don't owe). Should I call these people as witness or simply refer to these cases (with supplementary documents) now?
Thinking from the opposition point of view (which you must do!) I'm wondering why and how this evidence concerning the cases of other people should be made relevant to yours. My belief is that you are a person who has a good credit record (references available) who pays all just bills on time. You have been subject of this harassment as have other people of equal credit standing. At some stage it might be possible to ask the opposition to explain why they have taken this high handed action when discussion and negotiation by a proper customer service department should have been able to resolve the issue. This might be relevant in determining costs against you should the debt be proven at the Court hearing. Don't forget all along you have denied the Debt and this will be the first time, despite all the threats, that the defendants will be obliged to do this. If this is all submitted as written evidence the defendant's will have to decide whether to agree or dispute your points. If agreed there will be no need for witnesses to attend.
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  #71  
Old 07-March-2002, 14:11
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Thanks for this, Vic.

I did think that the defendants may see these pages, but thought - rightly thanks to you - that the benefits of seeking advice where I was not certain (as opposed to out and out weak) what the right course of action was.

The idea I was mooting with respect to the other parallel tales was to discredit the debt collecting process being deployed and make things as near to a class action as I reasonably can in the circumstances.

From what you've said though, it seems like I ought to call, eg, Electricity board, BT, ... etc as prospective witnesses if my points are disputed.

I will definitely move to get the case reinstated "home".

Thanks again, Vic. Any other thoughts from anyone?
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  #72  
Old 07-March-2002, 16:40
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Best of luck in your case. A couple of problems slightly concern me. I wonder if the case might not go to other than the small claims track. If that were to happen and you lost you would have to pay costs. I do not know how many letters you received from Aplins. I only received one. From the way it was worded I do not believe they were harassing me. Have you sought some professional legal opinion regarding your claim. If not I suggest this might be useful.

If you read the thread Yet more harassment you will see I have taken a slightly different route than you. I want to get DLC and ScotCall closed down. This is costing me nothing.

Bryan
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  #73  
Old 07-March-2002, 17:07
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Default Section 40...

Interesting approach, Bryan. In fact I am "on the case" with that also - I am dealing with Mr Dobson <which reminds me I need to send him a document list....>

I appreciate your concern that this one my go up a gear. The letter from Aplins was not in itself threatening or harassment. However, they were acting on behalf of a client who had already been told that I owed nothing. therefore, they should not have employed the bigger guns and in any case the bigger guns should have made sure before threatening court action.

I have sought some advice along the way - but not on the possibility of them playing hardball and elevating this to "costs apply" status. If that happens I will seek furtther advice. I am no expert, nor do I profess to be, nor do I have an optimistically rosy outlook on my prospects of success (although I *know* Tiscali and DLC have harassed me, hence the impending court case). Nor do I have a bottomless pocket. However I do have grit and very strong principles.
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  #74  
Old 07-March-2002, 17:55
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Default Section 40...

I have told my local Trading Standards of the existence and phone number of Mr Dobson. The more of us who can jump on the bandwagon the worse for DLC, ScotCall and others.

With regard to principles, one which a lawyer once told me is only go to court for money not principles. But lawyers are like that.

Bryan
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  #75  
Old 07-March-2002, 18:02
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Default go to court for...

Maybe I shouldn't go to court for principles, The other thing is that I do not want this hanging over me ad infinitem (or at least six years). Nor do I want to get down the road of "doorstep collectors", hence my preempt.

Thanks for your continued support - and I think I will consult with a legal eagle in the next few days.
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  #76  
Old 06-April-2002, 23:26
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Default The case is ongoing....

I am continuing my case against Tiscali. However, on advice of people better qualified than mr I have dropped the case against DLC and Aplins.

I did this with some reluctance as DLC could - and should - have rechecked things with their client after my initial denial with references. However, at the end of the day, I see that DLC were, in my case anyway, acting on clients' instructions.

I shall not drop it against Tiscali. They are about to run out of time for the second time on filing a defence.
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  #77  
Old 07-April-2002, 00:50
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Thanks for the update Roger.....

Hope you win out in the end against Tiscali.

Hope the behaviour of DLC will be admissable evidence in Court for your case against Tiscali.
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  #78  
Old 27-April-2002, 09:33
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Question New referal





Tiscali/World-On-Line's extended time to file a defence is over a fortnight expired. I have received no official paperwork in 3 weeks and therefore assume they failed to submit.

I was considering applying for summary judgement. However, this morning I receive a demand from yet another debt collector, "iDG Management Services Limited". The demand is for a few tens of pounds. How they have arrived at this arbitrary sum is not explained.

Now. What to do about this minor diversion?

My instinct is as follows:

1: To advise iDG of my payment to the previous debt collector and the pending court case.

2: To send a copy of this additional "threat" to the court and request that this additional twist be logged as a threat while the case is subjudice.

3: To subpoena "iDG" as witness (or is this over the top given that I have a letter from them, albeit with a preprinted signature?).

4: Reiterate my request to the court for the matter to be transferred back to my home teritory (it is now arbitrarily being held where the original debt collector's solicitor is based, who, along with the original debt collector have been let off the hook).

5. Ask the court to call a hearing - NOT summary jusgement - so that a member of Tiscali HAS to listen to the judgement and take back to all their departments the message that they must not **** up my back.

The above is very much instinctive. Does anyone have any other ideas before I form my game plan? I was mellowing and thinking of applying for summary judgement until about 20 mins ago when this new twist was unveilled.

Thanks in anticpation.

RTI
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  #79  
Old 27-April-2002, 13:29
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Congratulations Roger it seems that you have absolute control here.

My inclination would be to write to the Clerk of the Court protesting about this additional intimidation of plaintiff whilst a case is in progress. Maybe ask if this complaint be dealt with formally and the relevant aspects included in evidence of your case. Copy the letter to iDG.

I am wondering also if there may be any breach in Data Protection procedures, or Human Rights under European Law, in that your name, as an alleged debtor, is being circulated to numerous companies despite the debt being challenged and unproven.

You have done enough worrying - let the other side do this now!!

Good luck
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  #80  
Old 27-April-2002, 13:50
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Thumbs up

Thank you for your encouragement, Vic. It would seem from what you've said that I can indeed make political capital from this diversion. Thanks for your pointers; I shall do some research on data protection procedures.

Meanwhile, I would be interested in knowing if setting TWO entirely different debt collectors on someone for an alleged debt less than the measure of one hour's skilled labour at a franchised garage, where indubitable proof had already been communicated to the instigator that the debt was unjust, is a record?!
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  #81  
Old 29-April-2002, 23:23
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Question Which form?

Thanks to Vic, I know pretty much what I want to say. I want to force the court into a formal hearing, sooner rather than later, with the view to an injunction.

Now.. Which form?

The selection :

N16a, N211, N225, 7201 8545


...or just plain paper?

<edited to get rid of spurious text left in the type window and not spotted earlier>
<edited again to correct a name entry>

Last edited by RTI; 05-May-2002 at 10:23.
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  #82  
Old 30-April-2002, 08:05
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Well we wouldn't say here - just in case the other side are reading our pages

Guess they don't know we have a Personal Message system too
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  #83  
Old 05-May-2002, 10:21
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Red face Update on iDG

Well, before I got around to posting my responses, I received a grovel from iDG and a non prejudicial offer, which was at this stage in the procedings totally unacceptable.

I have written to all parties outlining this development.


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  #84  
Old 07-May-2002, 15:03
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Well done Roger.

Hope you get a final settlement to your satisfaction and based on your terms.

You deserve it!
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  #85  
Old 08-May-2002, 11:04
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Default apologies for long absence and update

Dear all,
I am sorry I have been absent from this board for such a long time but my father in Germany had two strokes, my mother had a car accident and to top it all my disabled son has had major problems as well and i have simply not been able to deal with this Tiscali/WOL problem as I would have liked to during the past couple of months.
So here is an update and unfortunately I cant say that any of it is any good at all.
As you might remember I also sent a letter to DLC and Tiscali threatening court action if i did not receive a letter from both clearing me of all liability within four weeks. this letter was sent at the beginning of February. From DLC I heard very swiftly, first in a phone call, then in writing, saying they did not want any further involvement. Tiscali took a bit longer, but also wrote to me (just) within the four weeks specified and told me that as 'a gesture of goodwill' they were to take no further action. In the middle of all of this came all the upheaval in my families life, and although not happy with it, I was not able to give any further attention to this matter at the time. I have now, just 4 days ago, come back from another very stressful visit to Germany to find a letter from IDG on my doorstep, seemingly, just like in your case RTI, another debt collecting agency, again harrassing me for money. I am now at my wits end and getting increasingly desperate about the situation. I have no longer the time nor the energy - as much as I would like to - to take any of them to court myself. I have just spent the whole morning on the phone trying to find a solicitor to even look at the case. I am not entirely sure where to turn to right now as most solicitors so far seem to say that it will cost me a lot of money (which being a single parent and with my family situation as it is, I dont have). I simply have not got the energy left to deal with anohter monumental task like taking them to court myself right now - but i can see that once again I might not have any choice. So, in short, I am still around, but only very sporadically and will continue to try and find a solicitor to take on this case, but failing all, I will just have to do it myself like you are doing now already RTI.
I am sorry i am not able to do more right now, but hope you understand - and know I am still around - and 'not quite out yet'.
all the best
especially to you RTI
bea
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  #86  
Old 08-May-2002, 12:25
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Question Does anyone know...

Firstly, please accept my prayers for your family,Bea. If there is anything I can do to help you have my number I think.

Secondly, does anyone know, given the parallels, if it is feasible at the late stage my own case has reached for me to take Bea's similarly harrowing example into consideration?

TIA

R
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  #87  
Old 08-May-2002, 19:06
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Firstly Bea I am so sad to hear of the recent tragic events in your family.

You don't need this hassle at all.

What you have written is absolutely damning evidence of the callousness of this Company and the debt collectors it is employing.

I've said previously we must work on the basis that Tiscali or their representatives are reading these pages. I'll therefore drop a line directly to Roger on this. IMHO if we play our cards right and link the Court case to appropriate publicity this could be absolutely damning.

Our thoughts are with you Bea......
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  #88  
Old 13-May-2002, 00:25
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I've not posted here before and so far at least (touch wood) I've not had any serious problems from Tiscali (though plenty of minor annoyances). I'm absolutely horrified to read of the way Tiscali and their debt collectors have been treating their customers.

Bea, I'm very sorry to hear of your family problems. Regarding your problems with Tiscali and finding a solicitor, have you tried contacting your local County Court? Speak to the Bailiff, or more likely the bailiff's clerk, briefly explain your situation and check with them exactly what your rights are. I used to be the bailiff's clerk at the local County Court and on several occasions had worried people phoning up with similar problems. I'm sure they will be able to give you some reassurance.

I wouldn't like to say too much about the procedures for debt recovery, as it's a few years since I worked for the court and I don't remember all the details and possibly some things may have changed. However, no bailiff (court or private) can enter your home or take your property without a warrant. In order to get a warrant from the court they must have first gained a court judgment. To get the judgment against you, you must have failed to pay a court order. To get the court order against you, they must have taken out a claim against you in the county court. If they have taken out a claim against you, you will have been sent a copy of the claim and given the chance to reply to the claim in court. It doesn't seem to me from reading this forum as though Tiscali or their debt collectors have done any of these things. This seems very strange to me as most companies would normally have followed these procedures to reclaim money from you.

If you know and can prove that you do not owe Tiscali money - difficult with their secretive billing system - then they will simply have to take you to court and prove that you owe them the amount.

All the best,

Caz
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  #89  
Old 16-May-2002, 00:59
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Default hi

Hi all, just to let u know that I am back! Had lots of problems at work, illness, loss my job and then recently returned from an well deserved holiday .
Do you still need my help RTI?
Sorry to hear of your problems bkind.
If I can help at all, please let me know.

Kitgem

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  #90  
Old 16-May-2002, 03:26
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Post Kitgem

Sorry to hear of your tribulations, Kitgem.

I'll send you a PM later in the week to fill you in on things. Briefly, unless you have had a second wave I think I have enough "case study" material to hand at the moment. However, I would appreciate you being on "stand by" in case I get a request for more from the courts.

Thanks

RTI
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