Non-geographic (0845/087x) numbers rip-off

[DaveL]

These days NGNs (non-geographic numbers) are everywhere. The numbers themselves just translate into a normal geographic number (beginning 01 or 02). They are, however, charged at different rates to geographic numbers, often higher.

A few years ago when numbers were changed, it was decided that 08 was to be used for 'special services'. The plan was to have numbers starting with 084 as local and 087 as national rate. However, whilst a company may often describe them using these terms, the reality seems somewhat different.

The original purpose of a local rate number was so that you could be charged as if it was a local call (ie within your local call area). Many telcos don't include these NGNs in their 'unlimited' or 'discount' packages (more on this on <thread>:the truth about unlimited call packages). BT Together is one of these such packages, and with the removal of BT Standard, nine million of us will pay extra line rental which will not make a scrap of difference when calling companies on these numbers.

To describe an 0870 number as being charged at 'national rate' is surely misleading, as this (whilst on BT) is at the national rate that is charged on BT Standard, even for those on all the BT Together options. Even after the removal of BT Standard, BT will continue to charge the 'standard' national rate to 0870 numbers!

These numbers generate revenue for the called party, making them equivalent to a low premium rate number. Although the rake-off they get is small, it's still there, and to the consumer it can increase their phone bill quite considerably when compared to calling the equivalent geographical number. In addition to 0870, we now have 0871 which seem to be charged at upto 10p/min at all times.

It would be fair to keep these number ranges providing that they are charged at the same rate as calling geographic numbers. It seems that Oftel/Ofcom has let these numbers become a haven for generating extra revenue at consumers' expense. They should stay as local and national rate, and any higher rates than that should operate using a different prefix. An example of this is 0871 which, at a glance is very similar to 0870.

A useful site is SAYNOTO0870.COM, which contains companies' geographic numbers.

[drrdf]

Hi DaveL,

Good idea to start this thread. What quite a few people do not seem to realise is that it was apparently BT who started this abuse, as one of a whole series of dirty commercial tricks to prevent free and unfettered competition from the new telco carriers. This is why the so-called National and Local Rates were set at BT's rates, because since BT still own most of the terminating connections it is the new entrant telcos who have to pay the Premiums (revenue sharing) to BT and since these are fixed at present this prevents other telco carriers being able to undercut BT much on NGN call rates, as they can with geographic call rates! Oftel and now Ofcom have just stood by and condoned BT's dirty tricks. The reality is that NGNs were never intended for revenue sharing (use as covert Premium lines). When BT force all Line Rental only customers to their Option 1 it will all become even more bizarre, since the so-called National and Local rates will not even any longer be BT's rates.

Oftel eventually had to ban this abuse with 07 PNS numbers, since there were so many abuses and complaints, but the level of abuse on 0870, 0845 and 0871 is now becoming the same since it was prevented on 07 PNSs. Complain via *** removed *** which makes complaining less time consuming.

[voxmagna]

What gets me is the way these numbers are actively promoted to businesses as offering a cost saving, whilst the very same organisations (using profits from our calls) exclude them from their discount bundles.

I'm with DaveL and feel this is an injustice. So much so I don't phone these numbers any more, just send emails or faxes to their normal faxline number in offpeak time. If the firm don't reply, or ring me back I shop elsewhere. These days I have a job trusting any of these numbers as you seem to need a pc and look up tables to work out what you'll be charged! Then you are queue'd for ages, racking up your costs and allowing them to make money from their failure to answer their phones!

I think businesses see the the future as growth of online transactions being largely automated, hands free, and low on staff costs - so withdrawing telephone access or forcing a higher rate number is just their way of saying they don't want to commit costs using people to talk to people. So as consumers it's your choice. Remember the BT phrase 'It's Good to Talk' ? I think many businesses would regard this as expensive inefficient and unfashionable.

[squidgy]

I agree about it being a rip-off - but I think it's more than just a rip-off. I think it's a back-door way of unregulated premium rate services.

Numbers starting with 09 are premium rate, and they're supposed to be regulated.

Numbers starting with 08 are now called "special rate" - and this is apparently something different to premium rate.

But I ask you.

When 0845 was first called "Local rate", and when 0870 was first called "National Rate", BT charged you a rate which was actually the same as their local and national rates. So, even if you didn't know how much you'd be charged for calls to 08 numbers - you could still be sure that it wouldn't cost more than geographic numbers.

Since then, we've had 0871 numbers, which are 10p per minute. Scuse me? Since when have national rate calls been less than 10p per minute, even on BT's exhorbitant tariffs? The only thing that's arguably "special" about 10p per minute is that it's less than it costs you to call a UK mobile. During the week. Except Vodafone. I guess that anything more than that is arguably premium.

And now that BT Standard has been abolished, it's ludicrous to describe 0845 and 0870 as local and national rate. Don't be surprised to see 0845, 0870 and 0871 rates quietly creeping upwards to become the new unregulated premium rate numbers.

[DaveL]

I can only think of two reasons that these numbers where called 'local' and 'national', and these are because:[list=1][*]they were to be at an operator's local and national rates
In which case their rates should change according to an operator's local and national geographic rate (them being free where applicable).
[*]they were to be fixed rates, reguardless of what an operator's rates were for geographic calls. The reason for this can only be that a portion of call costs go to the called party. Also, it so happened that BT's rates were the same as these fixed rates, and that's how they were so called.
In which case they should be classified as premium rate numbers.[/list=1]

They should not be tied to BT's rate as that makes it unfair on other operators, and if and when BT comes to changes its rates, it throws all the pricing into disarray, as is the case. Didn't anyone at Oftel think of this? They want to break up BT's monopoly, but yet they price calls at BT's rate!!

It seems that Oftel/Ofcom's investigation/consultation is just there to shut the door after the horse has bolted. The rules should have been drawn up at the beginning, instead of letting BT dictate what goes on.

[deezel]

I support totally the idea here that these 0870 numbers are just a rip off.

We know that BT are the biggest rip-off merchants of all time.

The struggle that was joined to get a decent price for internet access some years ago proves that.

At every turn BT struggle to hold on to their monopoly, their only concern being themselves and their shareholders.

The customer has always been bottom of their list and like with every other innovation by which efforts are made to make using a phone cheaper and easier to the customer, BT will have to be bought to book kicking and screaming.

The latest trick/gimmick/rip-off concerning line rental hikes is just the latest of their scams.

[DaveL]

What gets me is that BT spend as little as possible on the network! Walk down the street and see all those overhead cables draped from pole to pole, what an eyesore.

I think we have to blame Ofcom just as much, as BT is now a business and is just doing what it's there for, ie to make money for shareholders.

[deezel]

... and when they are reeled in on any particlar scam they shreak and cry about harming their competitiveness with other world telecoms.

I agree, we need an ofcom that will do a proper job but its a sad fact nowadays that global companies are stronger than governments

[drrdf]

Yes Dee,

But if consumers don't complain no notice will ever be taken. Ofcom argue that only 20 consumers sent responses to the last Oftel consultation on non-geographic nos, and that since they took over from Oftel hardly any consumers have complained so they must all be perfectly happy about this rip-off and the call charges! Therefore either we (who consider this to be a rip-off)are in a distinct minority of consumers or most consumers are too lazy to complain?

Surely it therefore needs far more consumers to respond to the current consultation and to register their complaints to Ofcom?

[drrdf]

By the way some agents marketing 0870 numbers are now paying just over 4 p per minute to companies with high annual call volumes.

Also if anyone wants to use one of the protest sites to complain do a search on Google for "0870 scandal" and it will be on the first page.

[drrdf]

One other key point about the abuse of these numbers as Premium numbers which no-one seems to have mentioned is that queuing is prohibited with 09 Premium numbers, but queuing is not prohibited with other NGNs, purely because revenue sharing was never intended with those. That is really why companies and government love them so much.

Most of the big money being collected from this abuse of other NGNs is made from call queuing (mainly into call centres). In other words callers are paying dearly to be held in line waiting for someone to answer their call. Companies are also getting up to more and more dirty tricks to increase call queuing times so as to generate more revenue. I have been researching the tricks which they have been introducing and it is almost unbelievable that they are being allowed to get away with some of them. The worst one I have discovered so far is that they are having their call centre control software programmed deliberately to throw callers out of the queue if they have been waiting for longer than a certain preset period e.g. 20 mins. This then means that you have to dial and queue all over again perhaps three or four times in a row. This can mean a total queuing time of say 80 mins, which very much increases their revenue!

[squidgy]

Very good point. I think that queueing on 08 numbers should be forbidden. I think that people should be required to have a licence before operating an 0845, 0870 or 0871 number, and if they don't comply with the terms of the licence, they should either have to pay a financial penalty, or have the licence revoked for a while.

[light]

Also if anyone wants to use one of the protest sites to complain do a search on Google for "0870 scandal" and it will be on the first page.

I tried the search but no luck. No protest sites come up

[DaveL]

www.saynoto0870.com

[squidgy]

I notice that this thread is the second result for 0870 rip-off.

[DaveL]

Broadband isn't working at the moment, so I thought I'd see if I can find a geographical equivalent number for one of the ISPs I've got a dial-up account with (Freeserve and BT Internet/Openworld). It turns out that BT have that avenue covered aswell, as there are certain geographic ISP numbers which are excluded from the BT Together "discount" package that they forced me onto last month.

Check numbers here: http://www.bt.com/together/isp_exclusion.jsp

[thefirs]

From Moneysavingexpert.com's telecoms forum:

I now use GPRS for mobile net access, but I used to use BT for mobile access via their landline number - 0121 478 9200. You'll of course need a btinternet/btopenworld/btyahoo username to connect with this though.

When this number is fed into the page referred above (http://www.bt.com/together/isp_exclusion.jsp):

"The number 0121 478 9200 was not found in the ISP exclusion list"

Seems that BT has not quite reached the joined-up plc stage, thank goodness.

[DaveL]

The number 01214789200 was found in the ISP exclusion list

You must enter numbers without spaces.

[DaveL]

I didn't see it myself, but it seems that BT has admitted that 0870 is premium rate on BBC's Working Lunch, see <thread>:BT admission. Don't forget to go to www.saynoto0870.com to find alternative geographical numbers.

[cheeky2004]

i agree that some 0870 numbers are being misused, you're right. This is by insurance companies esp where they redirect your call to india etc so you are infact paying for the indian call.

But on the other side of it, 0870 are good to obtaining access to some excellent phonecard and instant dial services. In today's complicated phone market many users do not know which way to turn or which service to sign up for. They don't even understand BT's many options...

It's confusing to anyone. So if there is a simple service where you dial an 0870 number (I'm not going to paste the number here as I like to stick by the forum rules - I just offer good advice) and just enter your internetional number it's much easier and whereas for the insurance companies you are involuntarily paying for a call to india, the 0870 phone services let you make use of the benefits of this number to call abroad to any country of your choice.

This way there are no confusing accounts, no pin numbers, no credit cards needed.

Bt should regulate the 0870 numbers and make sure they are being used by the right companies, not to hide international charges so they can cut costs in india.

[DaveL]

But on the other side of it, 0870 are good to obtaining access to some excellent phonecard and instant dial services. In today's complicated phone market many users do not know which way to turn or which service to sign up for. They don't even understand BT's many options...

Originally Posted by cheeky2004

I'm not knocking these services one bit. They should be called premium rate, low premium rate or something similar. Maybe there should be a prefix set aside for these dialing services.

But the fact remains that companies are using these numbers to subsidise their telephone systems.

Not only are they using them to reduce the costs of communicating with places like India, but it stands to reason that it allows them to do the same thing here. These numbers are typically advertised as being able to be routed according to time of day or if one number is busy.

Suppose one call centre in Manchester is busy, so the 0870 number puts you through to Leeds. It does that by having a list of geographical numbers to 'try'. Had the caller called a Manchester geographical number, it would answer at Manchester, and then they would have to use their own, paid for, communication channels to get the call to Leeds. At least I presume that's how it works.

Ofcourse, as well as needing less communication channels between the offices, the company gets paid for receiving calls. It's win-win for them!

[cheeky2004]

yeh good points dave, very true, sometimes we call someone in the next town and they have an 0870 number. On one of todays 'free' phone packages calls to 0870 are not free so infact we pay to call someone in the next town when if we called them using a local number it would have been free.

I also just realised Dave it was you who pasted that link from Ofcoms site, which enabled me to sort my line out once and for all so thanks for that.

cheers
simon

[DaveL]

Ofcom have today announced another consultation:
Ofcom targets competition and consumer safeguards for 0845 and 0870 services

[deezel]

Can I just say a belated big thanks to Dave L for bringing the 'sayno' site to my attention.

I have saved a nice few shillings.

[BexTech]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/

0870 Telephone Numbers
These numbers are often advertised as 'costing you the price of a national call'. In fact it will cost you much more than what most people pay for national calls, depending on your chosen tariff. Also, the company you're phoning often makes money out of your 0870 call to them.
Paraic O'Brien finds out more.

Listen again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyo...20041108_1.ram

[oldboy2000]

I used to bank with Alliance & Leicester ( for 0ver 20 years) and the number we used to phone was an 0845 number charged of course local rate......suddenly a few months ago they changed this number to an 0870 Number and told us how much better the service was now going to be....Rubbish of course all it was , was double cost!! I complained bitterly and got nowhere so I walked with my feet and changed Banks....First Direct use 0845 numbers and the staff are so much friendlier to talk to as well.....A & L Bank did me favour really....

[drrdf]

I hope Scoobs will let me post this here this time, since this version of the site has no pop-ups and no links to "computer dating agencies"!

The 0870 protest Campaign sites are now updated and allow you to submit responses to the latest Ofcom consultation more easily and quickly. (The Ofcom documents are very weighty and would take a long time to go through yourself.) Either of these sites help you to compile your own response much more quickly.

I think everyone that is annoyed by these 0870 etc. DPNs should send responses to these consultations to show Ofcom just how many consumers there are that are annoyed by this problem. There are 2 responses to send. Don't foget to send yours! You can use:
http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf

[warlord_shogun]

If you wondered why BT's number (0121 478 9200) wasnt on the exclusion list it was because you didnt type it with spaces as it was asked!
I just discovered that, and im well *$%£"£ off... anyway...

Sorry to ruin your Xmas

[drrdf]

Surely not? It actually states "without spaces" on their page and if you leave out the spaces it is listed as an excluded number. If you enter the spaces it is listed as "not excluded"!

I must remind everyone - if you have not yet sent your responses to the two consultations concerning this rip-off you have a few days only left. Don't procrastinate and end up forgetting to do it in time. Do it now.

Go to www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf now and it is easy to quickly send your two responses. DONT FORGET - PLEASE.

[DaveL]

Another interesting report on BBC Radio 4's You and Yours programme yesterday (listen here).

The DVLA's 0870s generates £1.1million per year. There are quite a few doctor's sugeries which now have 0870s. They interviewed a representative of a company installing these systems (Network Europe).

Visit Saynoto0870.com for more information and a database of alternative geographical numbers for contacting these organisations ripping us off.