Cheers International behind 50% of 070 missed call scams

[El Gringo]

http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Calls.aspx/070/m

070333*****....Cheers International Sales Limited...Allocated 02/2008

---------------------------
http://www.cheers.co.uk/

Cheers International
We are a digital telecommunications company and a telecoms service provider licensed by the DTI and regulated by OFCOM.

------------------------------------------
http://www.berr.gov.uk/

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/bre/index.html
Better Regulation

The Better Regulation Executive (BRE) is part of the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) and leads this regulatory reform agenda across government.

Working with and through others, our aims are:

* to work with departments to improve the design of new regulations and how they are communicated;
* to work with departments and regulators to simplify and modernise existing regulations; and
* to work with regulators (including local authorities) and departments to change attitudes and approaches to regulation to become more risk-based.

Significant progress has been made across all these areas. The Government’s ambitious and wide-ranging regulatory reform agenda is one of the most respected programmes in the world, which has been confirmed by a number of international surveys.

The five principles of good regulation

A key part of the BRE’s work has been to determine five key principles of regulation, which are now a cornerstone of the better regulation strategy and implementation. These state that any regulation should be:

* transparent
* accountable
* proportionate
* consistent
* targeted – only at cases where action is needed

------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/
Better Policy Making - Ofcom's approach to Impact Assessment

1.1 The decisions which Ofcom makes can impose significant costs on our stakeholders and it is important for us to think very carefully before adding to the burden of regulation. One of our key regulatory principles is that we have a bias against intervention. This means that a high hurdle must be overcome before we regulate. If intervention is justified, we aim to choose the least intrusive means of achieving our objectives, recognising the potential for regulation to reduce competition. These guidelines explain how Impact Assessments will be used to help us apply these principles in a transparent and justifiable way.

"The option of not intervening...should always be seriously considered. Sometimes the fact that a market is working imperfectly is used to justify taking action. But no market ever works perfectly, while the effects of...regulation and its unintended consequences, may be worse then the effects of the imperfect market"
Better Regulation Task Force (September 2003)

--------------------------------------------------------------

And this is better regulation of Cheers International's missed call scams in practice


http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/busin...p?cmd=3&id=760
22 May 2008
Content and/or promotion provided by.............Mr Arun Khanna t/a Khanna Enterprises
Service provider responsible for
compliance under the Code of Practice............Mr Tomasz Adamczyk

Telephone network(s)..................................Cheers International Telecom Limited


One complaint included a representative of the mobile operator 3G UK Ltd, who reported that approximately 2,000 missed calls per day were being made to 3G customers.

The Tribunal also commented adversely on the conduct of the network operator, Cheers International Telecom Limited. It considered that there was a strong case that it had failed in its due diligence requirements by taking on such a service and had performed unsatisfactorily in failing to disconnect the service.

Fine £25000

---------------------------------------

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/consu...udications.asp
EMERGENCY PROCEDURE INVESTIGATIONS
11 December 2008

PhonepayPlus, the phone-paid services regulator, has launched four separate investigations following complaints from members of the public.

The complaints relate to consumers receiving missed calls to both landlines and mobiles from 070 prefixed numbers.

In the cases of H. Naveneeth, K. Felix J. Paul and T. Jaya Kandan, we have written to Cheers International Sales Limited, the Network Operator

8 January 2009

Service Provider K. Felix J. Paul
fine £20,000

Service Provider T. Jaya Kandan
fine £20,000
--------------------------------------------------

£65,000 of 'regulatory' fines in the space of seven months. Given that the regulatory fine cannot exceed 10% of the amount involved in the scam, that would mean the missed call scam netted Cheers and their revenue share partners and clients at least £650.000. That's almost £100,000 a month.

[silentgenius]

For what it's worth, PPP is not limited to only imposing 10% fines - they can take all revenue, and more, if they chose. They have recently started calling these "punitive" fines in their adjudication reports!

It will be interesting to see the action they take against Cheers, who have been problematic in the past...

[El Gringo]

hi silentgenius,
i think you may not be quite correct here. these are 'regulatory' fines that PPP levy on behalf of Ofcom. They are subject to the Communications Act 2003. the fact that ppp describe them as 'punitive' is little more than a piece of ppp pr.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003..._20030021_en_1

97 Amount of penalty under s. 96

(1) The amount of a penalty imposed under section 96 is to be such amount not exceeding ten per cent. of the turnover of the notified provider’s relevant business for the relevant period as OFCOM determine to be—

(a) appropriate; and

(b) proportionate to the contravention in respect of which it is imposed.

the fines are capped at £250,000.

but yes it will be interesting to see how they portray this latest 'missed call' case.

[silentgenius]

I do not wish to distract from the main theme of the topic, but PPP fines are completely separate from the Ofcom limits. Ofcom regulates the Networks - PPP the service providers, and there have been many, many instances where they have taken way over 10% of service provider revenue.

If you look at the PPP sanctions guide (p7) you will see that fines are set according to the seriousness of the case, and there is no real limit, as they can do £250k per breach if they wish.

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs_...e_20080408.pdf

[El Gringo]

but PPP fines are completely separate from the Ofcom limits. Ofcom regulates the Networks - PPP the service providers

Originally Posted by silentgenius

@silentgenius
this is simply just not correct.

Ofcom is responsible for the regulation of the networks and the premium rate content that is promoted and carried on the networks.

PPP is a 'ltd company' and in itself has no authority to administer fines and no power to collect fines.
ppp has been contracted by Ofcom to regulate the premium rate industry on behalf of Ofcom and to administer and collect fines on behalf of Ofcom.

the fines ppp administer on behalf of Ofcom are very much subject to the communications act 2003.

"and there have been many, many instances where they have taken way over 10% of service provider revenue"
that may be so but how do you know?

[silentgenius]

The relevant section of the Comms Act for premium rate services is s120 and you will find in s123 the rules for the imposition of fines. They are not based on a percentage of turnover - unless ICSTIS/PPP have been misinterpreting the Act to date..

[mike99]

If we go to 123, it says:

123 Enforcement of s. 120 conditions

(1) Sections 94 to 96 apply in relation to a contravention of conditions set under section 120 as they apply in relation to a contravention of a condition set under section 45.

and if we go to 97, it says:

97 Amount of penalty under s. 96

(1) The amount of a penalty imposed under section 96 is to be such amount not exceeding ten per cent. of the turnover of the notified provider’s relevant business for the relevant period as OFCOM determine to be—

(a) appropriate; and

(b) proportionate to the contravention in respect of which it is imposed.

But I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the various juxtapositions of these various clauses.

Perhaps we should ask PP+?

[El Gringo]

http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Calls.aspx/070/m

http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/070333
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033331315
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033359002
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033322067
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033379154
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033307870
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033346159
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033334458
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033314318
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033373973
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033349538
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/07033356285

Phone Call Complaints
Recent Phone Call Reports

*
0700078
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*
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*
07033322067
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*
07055127994
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*
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*
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*
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*
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*
07055199975
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07033307870
07033307870
*
07025083128
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*
07024097532
Rent scam.
*
070312631762
wer du sein ßß
*
07052288478
unknown
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07033346159
wen i call bk it goes blank
*
07055116825
other number being used is 07055127994. Will these con artists ever give up/ Smart thing to do is always google the name or phone number. scams have a way of being highlighted when ...
*
07033334458
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*
07033314318
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*
07031939849
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*
07033373973
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*
07033349538
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*
07012212212
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*
07033356285
I keep on getting calls from this number once in a while. Has naybody else have received one?

07033312698 07033355135 07024024573 07057952354 07033316189 07033348390 07041114796 07033353366 07033358203 0707267439 07035906181 07033351143 07033322136 07031966575 07033371956 07019633102 07083592009 07081799069 07083592008 07041395625 07079888327 07079820808 07034310132 07079800902 07024067973 0708501291 07079822282 07083582007 07007992732 07022759049 07079820140 07008051530 0703356028 07079820826 07030399399 07079855656 07046470652 07079811945 07008026211 07033366810 07024065977 07079822037 07079830954 07022733839 07011137932 0700363627 07033361549 07031860666 0709020560 07083551515 07094606125 07079830609 07013109076 07079830306 07033368264 07079866897 07008024619 07036518118 07036524990 07024041542 07031849955 07079820990 070333855582 07033323952 07079820179 07033364144 07079820873 07033364295 07033352566 07075024340 07006400151 07006400158 07040373574 07031838872 07023017520 07024073349 07045714185 07025430089 07079844269 07073056124 07053794061 07053798468 07083526145 07024016560 07079811790 070950842 07024031158 07099800149 07045501170 07033363046 07092897847 07012143900 07031840116 07033338283 07061719804 07008772458 07061706329 07061719387 07033337788 07033337370 0703333 07061719711 07033329945 07053568430 070535 07053518119 07053580865 07099820366 07011410231 07053516267 07042154027 07042157181 07033317992 07053506620 07033314667 07033314894 07033306308 07042152779 07042152494 07042152406 07042152140 07042152332 07042152060 07033312166 07024046731 07053517501 0703318479 07081700155 07081700160 07033363745 07024051231 07081700146 07061719140 07053574031 07061735880 07061706825 07053520974 07081700167 07079888626 07061719624 07033366929 07033351011 07081700111 07042517921 07061729162 07081700295 07061719130 07061719272 07042554055 0706171055 07081744055 07061737055 07053580035 0708170146 07033355735 07033354291 07061706589 07053593857 07033359644 07061706431 07033372785 07042523445 07061741681 07081700139 07079800827 07033365365 07061758810 07042517497 07061735608 07079899903 07045742407 07053599878 07061729440 07081714221 07061700686 07061700595 07042517704 07036524972 07061729050 07022246969 07061758375 07053524049 07081739138 07061704992 07061704525 07061703867 07053567340 07053 07053556202 07053529722 07061704721 07061703667 070351079 0700015 07024035309 07005800975 0702510949 07079888945 07061701775 07079855209 07033365101 07061701635 07053531139 07036515547 07089605052 07036 07036522621 07045716423 07061703053 07061738060 07061703014 07036522988 07061703737 07099883318 07061740034 07089604592 07079844887 07036563620 07081700271 07061786811 07061718470 07061700506 07053543464 07061704355 07079866498 07061736392 07081700100 07081700174 07061758578 07053571345 07053563202 07036547980 07061736531 07081739101 07053510215 07061736259 07081700105 07061794055 07036586177 07033357473 07033338969 07079822299 07022774291 07036522800 07081700102 07061735006 07006400159 07061729843 07036522705 07089604189 07081700144 07061786212 07036586892 07061703311 07079800967 07014228573 07061739522 07061790244 07036515983 07081700142 07038806100 07061703182 07036586991 07061700649 07053539238 07061741962 07061717552 07061717023 07061717016 07061741074 07061741061 07061700618 07081700184 07006400160 07061759930 07053574949 07061759671 07081700150 07081700170 07036515045 07081700164 07081700162 07042551617 07061717001 07081700141 07042523193 07061703926 07089612862 07061703165 07089604176 07056331001 07061717071 07081700165 07061740442 07061787277 07022200022 07061704652 07031819355 07044866775 07005995634 07042550246 07036515354 07081731311 07061786655 07061787358 07081700134 07036586654 07081703522 07081705928 07036522364 07036515783 07081704469 07081705366 07061703039 07042553972 07081747331 07081705444 07061703396 07061784000 07061741541 07061784273 07079877989 07089612017 07031847713 07017770000 07061784534 07061741684 0704601100 07031918566 07079844869 07061791703 07061799610 07033328043 07061741222 07061741600 07033376934 07045735828 07045719547 07045271963 07040113014 07028759590 07061758454 07061797369 07036518162 07036515496 07081700343 07061703033 070617 07061703723 07053552948 07053522600 07036447787 07061703488 07036586801 07053570906 07023660961 07061798842 07061703487 07061703219 07061740685 07049799835
----------------------------------------
http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/busin...p?cmd=3&id=800
04 Dec 2008
Service provider.........Starwire Limited
Telephone network.....Hotchilli Communications Limited

50 pence per minute (070145
070427
070428
and 070817 prefixed numbers).50 pence per call plus 3.95 pence per minute (070425
070617
and 070896 prefixed numbers).
070617.................19 Nov 2007>>>>>>>>26 Aug 2008
and 070896 prefixed numbers).

Fine £250000
-------------------------------------
Cheers International 070333***** late 2008? >>>>>> 20 Jan 2009>>>>>>>>>>>>?????(aka £££££££££)

[rantrave]

Reading some of the post, I feel that this has been slightly misleading and you may be pointing the finger too quickly and harshly at the wrong culprits.

I too had several 070 miss calls from a number which was shown to be operated by CHEERS INTERNATIONAL. Upon investigation I found out that Cheers International are a NETWORK OPERATOR, and as such rent the numbers out to various companies who are the REAL CULPRITS.

Upon talking to the friendly customer server representative at Cheers, they said as they are the Network Operator for these numbers they can investigate any suspected misuse on these numbers and that they have the powers to suspend any reseller or service provider using their numbers, withhold revenue and in turn pass this on to the aggrieved party.

I stipulated to them that I wanted my number taken off their system, and they said whilst they don't hold data for all service providers that use their numbers, they can inform the providers and enforce where possible to withdraw my number from any data lists.

SO I RECOMMEND THAT YOU CONTACT Cheers International directly if you do actually want a pro-active response. You can call them on 08702441503 also they have an online Number Enquires/Complaint form at http://www.cheerssecure.co.uk/corporate/07.html as they can assist you.

For now I haven’t been bothered again :o)

Ps. Perhaps the issue lies with why did ofcom come up with 070 in the first place, And don’t forget out of every call made on these numbers your mobile operator or home telephone provider make a cut.

[El Gringo]

Don't call 08702441503

they gave me a free number to call if anybody wants to report the miss-use of Cheers International's 070 numbers.

free help line on 0800 500 212 (open 0800-1800 Monday to Friday)

or the department that deals with Cheers International complaints

write to us at ,
Cheers International complaint
Freepost,
WC5468,
London SE1 2BR

[Hamlet]

I found out that Cheers International are a NETWORK OPERATOR, and as such rent the numbers out to various companies who are the REAL CULPRITS.

Originally Posted by rantrave

It is a part of their business to give loaded guns to anyone without taking too much care about what they are doing with it. So it is part of their risk to be mentioned in relationship to fraud done by their partners.
If you wanna make money deep in the PR cesspit you can't avoid the pong.
You registered here to tell us that Cheers is not to blame, I registered here to find lots of examples to doubt the theory of the poor beguiled NOs and providers.

[rantrave]

Don't call 08702441503

they gave me a free number to call if anybody wants to report the miss-use of Cheers International's 070 numbers.

free help line on 0800 500 212 (open 0800-1800 Monday to Friday)

or the department that deals with Cheers International complaints

write to us at ,
Cheers International complaint
Freepost,
WC5468,
London SE1 2BR

Originally Posted by El Gringo

That's Phonepayplus address and number, not Cheers Internationals. If you go to Phonepayplus, they refer you to go to Cheers International.

Correct me if i'm wrong ??

[rantrave]

It is a part of their business to give loaded guns to anyone without taking too much care about what they are doing with it. So it is part of their risk to be mentioned in relationship to fraud done by their partners.
If you wanna make money deep in the PR cesspit you can't avoid the pong.
You registered here to tell us that Cheers is not to blame, I registered here to find lots of examples to doubt the theory of the poor beguiled NOs and providers.

Originally Posted by Hamlet

lol... my post was to be constructive and informative for others if they received a missed call from one of their numbers. Phonepayplus just forward you onto Cheers anyway. But more to the point i just said there was some very misguided and misrepresentation on this forum as who is really to blame. For me it is ofcom for coming up with such a stupid number range in the first place, which is blatantly open for misuse, don't forget the mobile operators and landline telecom operators all make there share from a dialed 070 number.

[mike99]

rantrave rote:

lol... my post was to be constructive and informative for others if they received a missed call from one of their numbers. Phonepayplus just forward you onto Cheers anyway. But more to the point i just said there was some very misguided and misrepresentation on this forum as who is really to blame. For me it is ofcom for coming up with such a stupid number range in the first place, which is blatantly open for misuse, don't forget the mobile operators and landline telecom operators all make there share from a dialed 070 number.

I think you and Hamlet are having a violent agreement here.

Responsibility for premium rate crime is shared (not equally, but shared) between: Government, Ofcom, Phonepayplus, the Network Providers, the Service Providers, and the Content providers. Moreover, they all benefit financially from premium rate crime - some more directly than others.

I have not been following this story particularity closely, so I can't say how much I think that Cheers is to blame in this particular case, but there are prima facia grounds for doubting that they have completely clean hands.

The underlying problem, as always, is an industry and regulatory structure that makes theft and fraud inevitable and which diffuses responsibility along a value chain thereby making it possible for each party along that chain to shrug its shoulders and say "nowt to do with us mate".

[rantrave]

rantrave rote:



I think you and Hamlet are having a violent agreement here.

Responsibility for premium rate crime is shared (not equally, but shared) between: Government, Ofcom, Phonepayplus, the Network Providers, the Service Providers, and the Content providers. Moreover, they all benefit financially from premium rate crime - some more directly than others.

I have not been following this story particularity closely, so I can't say how much I think that Cheers is to blame in this particular case, but there are prima facia grounds for doubting that they have completely clean hands.

The underlying problem, as always, is an industry and regulatory structure that makes theft and fraud inevitable and which diffuses responsibility along a value chain thereby making it possible for each party along that chain to shrug its shoulders and say "nowt to do with us mate".

Originally Posted by mike99

Well put

[El Gringo]

That's Phonepayplus address and number, not Cheers Internationals.
Correct me if i'm wrong ??

Originally Posted by rentrave

I've just contacted them and they confirmed this is now the correct place to report 070 Cheers International missed call abuse

Don't call 08702441503

they gave me a free number to call if anybody wants to report the miss-use of Cheers International's 070 numbers.

free help line on 0800 500 212 (open 0800-1800 Monday to Friday)

or the department that deals with Cheers International complaints

write to us at ,
Cheers International complaint
Freepost,
WC5468,
London SE1 2BR

[rantrave]

I've just contacted them and they confirmed this is now the correct place to report 070 Cheers International missed call abuse

Don't call 08702441503

they gave me a free number to call if anybody wants to report the miss-use of Cheers International's 070 numbers.

free help line on 0800 500 212 (open 0800-1800 Monday to Friday)

or the department that deals with Cheers International complaints

write to us at ,
Cheers International complaint
Freepost,
WC5468,
London SE1 2BR

Originally Posted by El Gringo

When you say us ? Do you work for PhonePayPlus El Gringo ?

I just spoke to PhonePayPlus and they refer you back to the Network Operator, with the details i gave. Only when you are not satisfied with the Network Operator's response will PhonePayPlus touch it. Why waste everyone's time. More mis-information

[silentgenius]

methinks El Gringo is being a bit cheeky..?? International!

[El Gringo]

When you say us ? Do you work for PhonePayPlus El Gringo ?

Originally Posted by rentrave

yes and no......i'm contracted to a large telecom (related) company that has to work with ofcom (ppp) on a regular basis. this company also works with many companies like Cheers and Premtel etc.

I just spoke to PhonePayPlus and they refer you back to the Network Operator, with the details i gave. Only when you are not satisfied with the Network Operator's response will PhonePayPlus touch it.

Originally Posted by rentrave

i doubt this very much. ppp has been told to have a zero tolerance of 070 missed call scams.
most people would not have the faintest idea who the owner (Network Operator) of the 070 number was until they contact ppp.

Why waste everyone's time. More mis-information

Originally Posted by rantrave

who are you working for? why are you so concerned that people might report Cheers to ppp.

[Cormoran]

yes and no......i'm contracted to a large telecom (related) company that has to work with ofcom (ppp) on a regular basis. this company also works with many companies like Cheers and Premtel etc.

Originally Posted by El Gringo

El Gringo, You 'sly old dog' .

After all this time I never knew that you were that involved.

[El Gringo]

http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/s...13&postcount=9

Reading some of the post, I feel that this has been slightly misleading and you may be pointing the finger too quickly and harshly at the wrong culprits.

I too had several 070 miss calls from a number which was shown to be operated by CHEERS INTERNATIONAL. Upon investigation I found out that Cheers International are a NETWORK OPERATOR, and as such rent the numbers out to various companies who are the REAL CULPRITS.

Upon talking to the friendly customer server representative at Cheers, they said as they are the Network Operator for these numbers they can investigate any suspected misuse on these numbers and that they have the powers to suspend any reseller or service provider using their numbers, withhold revenue and in turn pass this on to the aggrieved party.

I stipulated to them that I wanted my number taken off their system, and they said whilst they don't hold data for all service providers that use their numbers, they can inform the providers and enforce where possible to withdraw my number from any data lists.

SO I RECOMMEND THAT YOU CONTACT Cheers International directly if you do actually want a pro-active response.
You can call them on 08702441503 also they have an online Number Enquires/Complaint form at http://www.cheerssecure.co.uk/corporate/07.html as they can assist you.

For now I haven’t been bothered again :o)

Originally Posted by rantrave 04-February-2009

http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/08716654044/5
08716654044 phone number comments:

called for a few seconds then hung up.

Originally Posted by Laurie Bell - 1 Oct 2008

I found out that the number belong to a company called Cheers International, who then rent the numbers out to various companies. They said as they are the Network Operator for these numbers they can investigate any suspected misuse on these numbers.

I stipulated to them that I wanted my number taken off their system, and they said whilst they don't hold data for all service providers that use their numbers, they can inform the providers and enforce where possible to take withdraw my number from any data list.

They only have the power to do this with any numbers that they own.

You can contact them on 0870 244 1503 also they have an online Number Enquires/Complaint form at http://www.cheerssecure.co.uk/corporate/07.html

For now I haven’t been bothered again :o)

Originally Posted by Simon - 16 Oct 2008

he first gets a missed call scam from Cheers 0871 and then he gets a missed call scam from Cheers 070 numbers.

"who are you working for? why are you so concerned that people might report Cheers to ppp"
i think that answers that

also
http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/vt.php?p=22612#22612

[rantrave]

he first gets a missed call scam from Cheers 0871 and then he gets a missed call scam from Cheers 070 numbers.

"who are you working for? why are you so concerned that people might report Cheers to ppp"
i think that answers that

also
http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/vt.php?p=22612#22612

Originally Posted by El Gringo

lol i don't work in telcos at all, i'm a freelance web designer. So at least my opinion and subjective posts are non tainted unlike yours. To work in the industry as you now admit, but yet sit there slagging it off i find quite absurd. If you have such a conscious on such matters, work in another industry, rather than get paid from the telecom culprits who rip us all off, including the redundant regulators like ofcom and Phonepayplus. The reason i post to forums is to guide people with the correct information. Not to misinform them to my own means unlike others who post and yet work in telecoms (???). I suppose its keeping you in a job.

And I don't care if people who have 070 misuse complaints from Cheers go to Phonepayplus, all i stated was my experience with Cheers and PhonePayPlus, and how PhoenPayPlus direct you back to the Network Operator. The readers of this forum will find this out themselves anyway.

Also, yes have posted on another forum and with an 0871 number, but is that a crime ?? (I have mastered the art copy and paste).

Stop misguiding people and stop presuming. Its a very blinkered existence.

[El Gringo]

@ all, please ignore

back on topic
Cheers International behind 50% of 070 missed call scams

[mike99]

........ erm

As I said earlier, I have not been following this particular thread in great detail, but I have the impression that there have been a number of crossed wires.

In particular, I don't think anyone above really works for a telco.

Moreover, I for one, am always glad to see contributions on these threads from new people in general and rantrave (who appears to be perfectly genuine to me) in particular. Otherwise, the three of us (the three main contributors here) really are preaching to the choir.

[El Gringo]

yes and no......i'm contracted to a large telecom (related) company that has to work with ofcom (ppp) on a regular basis. this company also works with many companies like Cheers and Premtel etc.

lol i don't work in telcos at all, i'm a freelance web designer. So at least my opinion and subjective posts are non tainted unlike yours. To work in the industry as you now admit, but yet sit there slagging it off i find quite absurd. If you have such a conscious on such matters, work in another industry, rather than get paid from the telecom culprits who rip us all off, including the redundant regulators like ofcom and Phonepayplus. The reason i post to forums is to guide people with the correct information. Not to misinform them to my own means unlike others who post and yet work in telecoms (???). I suppose its keeping you in a job.

And I don't care if people who have 070 misuse complaints from Cheers go to Phonepayplus, all i stated was my experience with Cheers and PhonePayPlus, and how PhoenPayPlus direct you back to the Network Operator. The readers of this forum will find this out themselves anyway.

Also, yes have posted on another forum and with an 0871 number, but is that a crime ?? (I have mastered the art copy and paste).

Stop misguiding people and stop presuming. Its a very blinkered existence.

Originally Posted by rantrave

just to clarify.

its a line rental, broadband and basic call plan contract with BT

[rantrave]

There's so much innuendo its hard to know what is fact and fiction any more. Its hardly welcoming to the topic.

But if you do work for the telcos than i have no beef with that, as long as the information is unbiased, perhaps you can give us information we are not privy to.

I do feel though that with any 070 mis-calls, gunning down one Network Operator is not going to get rid of the problem, as the problem will just move on to another Network Operator.

I'm really not sure of the legalities of this, but if Cheers had their 070 number stripped from them, wouldn't these number just get allocated to someone else ? Same if the company went bust. The service providers / resellers using the 070 number range from the Cheers network will just move on. Which isn't going to solve anything.

From what i can tell (and i may be wrong) anyone can go to Network Operator or number reseller and get a range of 070 numbers. Its far easier than getting a Premium 09 number range... and for that matter you can have a long line of resellers reselling to one another, cloaking what the actual use of 070 numbers are used for.

It does seem like one big huge pickle.... As far as i can see it there is 2 ways to combat 07 missed call:

1. is for one is for end users not to redial a number they do not recognise. If a call is really important the caller will call back or leave a voice mail.... thats the simplest.

2. The other way is for the 070 number range to change ie have less of a call charge as to squeeze these dodgy SP's and resellers out of the equation.

But i feel whilst money is being made on these calls, most of the regulators and telcos in the money revenue chain prefer to sit on their hands. And don't forget its not really in Ofcom or PhonePayPlus interest to get rid of a Network Operator as its these guys that keep them in a job.

So perhaps the simplest solution is don't call back a number you don't know.

[mike99]

Well I would be suspicious of any 070 numbers and any missed call I did not recognize, but most people are not aware of 070 numbers and the scammers only need a few hits per hundred scam calls to make a hansom profit.

Ofcom are currently holding a consultation on 070 numbers, but (if you read between the lines) I suspect that they have already decided that the costs of sorting out this problem outweigh the benefits - a misguided decision IMHO because the mistrust caused by this sort of thing has a huge knock-on effect beyond the immediate victims.

Ofcom have, however, decided to stop issuing these numbers to firms and individuals who misuse them. Obvious you might think, but it took Ofcom a long time to come up with this ingenious idea.

Phonepayplus have also taken 070 scams quite seriously and have issued some non-token fines (in contrast to the fines they levy against 09 and short-code based scams - I suspect that Ofcom have been leaning on them on this issue) ; but they have not (so far) managed to actually collect these fines.

What I don't understand about 070 scams is that (according to Ofcom) revenue sharing is not permitted on 070 numbers. This would seem to suggest that the content providers who run these scams can only make money with the direct collusion of the service providers and the network providers.

[rantrave]

I read somewhere that revenue sharing was only not allowed to end users , meaning that revenue sharing between service providers, number resellers and network operators is ok.. so the chain of revenue sharing can be long and hidden on 070. That's probably why fines due have been short coming.

[El Gringo]

but they have not (so far) managed to actually collect these fines.

Originally Posted by mike99

so the chain of revenue sharing can be long and hidden on 070. That's probably why fines due have been short coming.

Originally Posted by rantrave

interesting. are they having the 070 numbers taken away because of the seriousness of the case or non-payment of the fines?

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs1...dsps_fines.pdf
BARRED SERVICE PROVIDERS - NON-PAYMENT OF FINES
1999 ONWARDS
*Until payment is made

[mike99]

I read somewhere that revenue sharing was only not allowed to end users , meaning that revenue sharing between service providers, number resellers and network operators is ok.. so the chain of revenue sharing can be long and hidden on 070. That's probably why fines due have been short coming.

Originally Posted by rantrave

Well you are right in saying that "no revenue sharing" means "no revenue sharing with end users", but the thing with "missed call marketing" (as this scam is euphemistically called) is that the "content provider" and the "end user" are the same person. These scams make money when the victim rings the 070 number. That number has been issued to the CP on the pretext that the CP will use it as a "follow me anywhere" contact number.

If the SP does not know that the CP will misuse the number then there should be no reason for the SP to discuss revenue with the CP.

If, however, the SP knows that the CP is not going to use the 070 number as a "follow me anywhere" contact number but is going to use to provide a commercial "service" (such as a missed call scam) then the SP is manifestly a crook too and cannot plead ignorance.

My understanding was that only NPs and SPs can legally make money from 070 numbers.

The ending of revenue share on 0870 numbers was supposed to stop the misuse of these numbers. If the owner of the number is a CP, and you are right in thinking that revenue sharing with CPs is allowed, then this suggests that the ending of revenue sharing will not protect people from 0870 scams either.